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A couple of weeks ago, several Republican senators not only criticized President Trump’s proposed $1.8 billion “Anti-Weaponization Fund” in a private meeting but “screamed” at Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche, according to Senator Ted Cruz on his podcast.
“There were multiple senators yelling at the attorney general, saying this feels like self-dealing,” Cruz said, presumably echoing broader criticism that this fund seemed more like a slush fund for Trump’s allies and supporters. The administration has defended the fund as open to everyone. But Blanche announced this week that the administration was scrapping the plan. Whether the senators’ motivation was moral or simply practical—do they really need another headache before the midterms?—the headline is the same: Are Republicans finally pushing back on Trump?
Beyond this fund, Senate Republicans also forced Trump to abandon his request for nearly $1 billion in ballroom security funding. And yesterday, House Republicans broke ranks to rebuke Trump’s war in Iran, directing him to withdraw U.S. forces or win approval from Congress.
For most of his second term, Trump has successfully conveyed the message that defiance is not an option. In recent Republican primaries, Trump made clear that his standard was absolute loyalty. Candidates who did not meet his standard—Representative Thomas Massie, Senator Bill Cassidy, and Senator John Cornyn—all lost their primaries. Earlier this year, Trump allies poured millions into races against Indiana Republican state senators who had voted against a redistricting plan that would have favored Republicans. Most of them lost, too.
The seeds of mutiny are detectable. But the president still has the strength and support to suppress them. So who is willing to take the risk, and who isn’t? On this week’s Radio Atlantic, I speak with Indiana State Senator Jim Buck, a pro-Trump Republican who did not vote for his state’s redistricting plan and faced an onslaught of what he calls “lies” and threats as a result. I also talk to our staff writer Russell Berman about the dueling forces of Trump’s revenge campaign and growing party defiance.
The following is a transcript of the episode:
Hanna Rosin: There is a way that an American superhero story, or really any hero story, is supposed to unfold. A lone individual—let’s call him Buck—notices that something in the universe is not right. The little people are being menaced by a dark force—a force with power, money, and very few moral inhibitions.
Buck is just one person, but he has truth on his side.
In American politics in the last few years, the Bucks have not been winning. And the Bucks I am mainly referring to here are Republicans who speak up against the leader of their party because they think what he is saying does not make much sense.
Russell Berman: There is a lot of tension right now between Republicans in Congress, especially in the Senate and President Trump. They’re pretty much fed up with him at this point.
Rosin: This is Atlantic staff writer Russell Berman.
Berman: And the most recent reason for that, of course, is that President Trump endorsed against two of their incumbents, which is pretty unheard of. He endorsed against Senator John Cornyn in Texas, who lost. He endorsed against Senator Bill Cassidy in Louisiana, who lost.
We saw this, of course, in Kentucky, where Congressman Thomas Massie, who was Trump’s probably least favorite Republican congressman, who was a thorn in the side—it was a very expensive race, and he lost. So Trump clearly still has power within the Republican Party.
Rosin:.When Republicans have spoken out against Trump, this has typically been their fate. They are starkly reminded that resistance is not an option.
Until very recently.
News Reporter (from WJCL): And we begin with breaking news at 4: South Carolina lawmakers are shutting down a major redistricting plan backed by President Trump…
News Reporter (from CBS19): And President Trump’s primary endorsement streak hit a roadblock last night. His pick for Iowa’s GOP gubernatorial nominee is projected to narrowly lose out to conservative Zach Lahn.
News Reporter (from PBS News): Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche said today that the Justice Department is scrapping plans to create that $1.8 billion so-called anti-weaponization fund. It’s a setback for President Trump after Republican senators made clear that they did not have the votes…
[Music]
Rosin: I’m Hanna Rosin. This is Radio Atlantic.
Today on the show, we are taking a closer look at that cycle of intimidation and fear, and why some people resist—and others don’t.
In this current moment of both revenge and defiance, I thought back to an earlier showdown, in Indiana. Trump put tremendous pressure on state senators to approve a new map that would have added two Republican seats. But Republican state senators overwhelmingly rejected that map. And payback came swiftly.
Last month many of those Republican senators—conservative senators who are otherwise pro-Trump—lost their primary.
Rosin: I mean, having covered Indiana and watching this right now unfold nationally, where you’re finally seeing people start to push back, do you have a sense yourself of how an individual decides to push back, like even in Indiana. Did you gain any insight why some people or why in some moments resistance develops and why sometimes it just can’t?
Berman: Right. It varies a lot. It’s very interesting to see. I did a story, I talked to one senator who wanted to tell his story. He had been swatted. He was not running for reelection, but he still did not wanna put his name out there. And it was not because he feared the political consequences because, again, he wasn’t running for reelection. He feared for the safety of himself and his family.
And so there was—you could see that internal battle even in his own mind between wanting to speak up, to resist, right, but also to preserve his own safety. And then you saw other senators who did speak up and who felt so compelled, they were so, sort of, put off by what was going on that they did speak up in interviews, but on the Senate floor very emotionally. And you see that, I think, Indiana is not unique, right? This is what we’ve seen nationally.
[Music]
Rosin: Any questions for me before we get started about the substance of the thing?
State Sen. Jim Buck: No, we’ll just take it as it goes.
Rosin: Okay. All right…
Rosin: One of the reasons I wanted to call you, the main reason, is you’re in Indiana, I’m in Washington, and here in D.C. at a national level, we’ve seen a lot of people agree to things or do things when the president asks them to. And maybe they didn’t necessarily believe in those things or think those were the right things, but a lot of people do them anyway. And I’ve just been wondering why most people do that, and then some people just can’t do that. They just won’t do that.
And so that’s really actually the insight I would love from you. Do you have any insight into why? Why you couldn’t just do it when a lot of other people do?
Buck: I guess it boils down to what’s your priorities as a public servant?
Rosin: This is Buck. Indiana State Senator Jim Buck. Buck was one of the state senators who was against redistricting last year.
Buck: I mean, I go back—if you’re a history buff—how much our country depended and should still depend on “we the people.” If you lose sight of “we the people” and start paying attention to individuals that outrank you, from my perspective, the end is not gonna be very pleasant.
And I’ve always felt comfortable in listening to the people I represent, whether when I was in the House or now in the Senate.
Rosin: You used the word “comfortable.” It didn’t seem comfortable. The whole situation seemed pretty uncomfortable. People talked about death threats, all kinds of things. So what do you mean by comfortable?
Buck: “Comfortable” by the way I was going to vote. Now, if you’re talking about the circumstances prior to and after that, yeah, there were times that was pretty uncomfortable physically. But when you’re threatened with your house being bombed, with your reputation being destroyed—that’s not a comfortable environment.
So there’s two different views. I didn’t want to conflict that the whole episode’s been comfortable. I was very comfortable with the vote.
Rosin: Mm-hmm. Comfortable meaning you didn’t have to—
Buck: It was the right decision. It was the right decision.
Rosin: And when Buck finally saw the maps for himself…
Buck: I never thought they would stand a court challenge. It was gerrymandered unbelievably so.
Rosin: When you looked at the map, what was your first thought? Just looking at the map.
Buck: This is nuts.
Rosin: And yet, the calls for Buck and others to change their minds weren’t just coming from his constituents. They were coming from inside the house—from his own party.
State Sen. Chris Garten: Those opposed say redistricting in the middle of a decade is breaking with tradition. They say we are changing the rules. To them I say this: When your house is on fire, you don’t worry about whether or not you’re traditionally holding the hose the right way. You do whatever it takes to put out the fire.
Rosin: And then pressure started coming from inside an even bigger house: the White House.
Buck: The president called us. The governor called us. The vice president—we met with him twice. Our lieutenant governor.
News reporter (from CBS4 Indy): CBS4 is your local elections headquarters. Indiana Governor Mike Braun says he stands with President Donald Trump in getting state lawmakers to redistrict now. The president sharply criticizing the Indiana senate for refusing to take up redistricting…
Buck: The beauty of the—if you wanna call it beauty—the president and the vice president never made personal threats. But it was the underlings that were closest to me that I’d known as friends, served with, that let me know in no uncertain terms, They’re going to destroy you. They’re going to ruin your reputation if you vote no.
Well, a comment like that, you’ve gotta try to think, What form is that gonna take? Rosin: Wait, are you being literal? People said literally those words or they implied?
Buck: Oh, literally. Literally.
Rosin: They are going to destroy you?
Buck: Yep, and ruin your reputation. Straight on.
Rosin: In person people said that to you?
Buck: In person.
Rosin: That’s like from a mafia movie. So what did you—
Buck: Yeah. There’s a lot of scenarios here with mafia movies. (Laughs.)
Rosin: What did you take that to mean? Were there specifics?
Buck: No, that’s the generality. It’s like if you wanna compare it to the mafia: We know where you live and we know where your kids go to school. Well, you can try to fill in the blanks, but there’s only so many blanks to fill in before you decide: I either succumb to this threat, and if I do, I shouldn’t be in this office. I’m in this office because people trusted me, so I ought to vote in the way they view me, as being a good custodian of their vote.
Lt. Governor Micah Beckwith: Senator Gaskill calls House Bill 1032 for the third reading. Clerk will read.
Chair recognizes Senator Gaskill to present the bill.
Rosin: On December 11, the Indiana state Senate gathered to vote on the redistricting bill.
State Sen. Gaskill: Thank you Mr. President. Members of the senate. I bring to you House Bill 1032 for consideration. It’s a bill to redraw the congressional maps of Indiana.
Rosin: Buck, who had actually been in the hospital during this time, convinced his doctors to let him leave to cast his vote.
Buck: I was on the Senate caucus at noon. I got a round of applause from my caucus members ’cause they knew what I’d been through. And that was the only thing on the floor at the time—was that vote.
Beckwith: All right. This bill is now placed on its passage and the machine is open for voting.
Buck: And I remember casting the vote, grateful that I was there, grateful that the constituents had put trust in me to vote no, and grateful that my lovely wife would drive me home like the doctors demanded.
Rosin: But before the last vote was cast—State Senator Michael Young—who would end up voting in favor of the redistricting—got up to the podium and asked to speak on the record.
State Sen. Michael Young: Thank you Mr. President and members of the Senate. Real quick…
Rosin: He expressed disappointment and frustration that the bill would fail. And then he left his colleagues who had voted against it with a final parting thought:
Young: I love you guys here. There’s nobody I dislike. Some of my best people are not even conservative. I know what’s about to happen to some of my friends in this chamber. You can believe it or not. You can believe it or not. But when they come into your districts—and I’m not lying—with $2 to $3 million, I know you’ll try your best. You’ll do what you can.
But I believe, in the end, most of you won’t be here anymore. And that takes courage to give you up your seat when you have an opportunity to help your country. So God bless the United States of America.
Beckwith: All right. The machine is now closed. The clerk will tally the roll. Nineteen ayes, 31 noes. This bill has been defeated.
[Cheers.]
[Gavel bangs.]
Beckwith: Please stay quiet in the gallery. Thank you.
Rosin: So you weren’t surprised when it failed?
Buck: No.
Rosin: And did you feel hopeful when it failed? Did you feel proud, hopeful? Like the right thing had happened?
Buck: Yes. I think what you said is concise. The right thing happened.
Rosin: Mm-hmm. And did you yourself feel nervous about what kind of repercussions there would be?
Buck: Well, to be honest, that particular day my main concern was getting home. I didn’t have a chance to think. I was thinking more about my own health at that point.
And then it hit later.
News Reporter (from FOX News): President Trump calling out Indiana Republicans state senators who voted against redistricting, saying overnight in a Truth Social post that they should be primaried…
[Music]
Rosin: That’s after the break.
[Break]
Rosin: In January, about four months before Jim Buck’s primary to keep his seat, President Trump posted on Truth Social that he would be throwing his support behind Buck’s opponent, Tracy Powell.
Trump called Buck a “pathetic RINO,” which is short for “Republican in name only.” And wrote that Buck had “failed the wonderful people of Indiana so badly.”
Buck has been in the state legislature for more than 30 years. Made a home in Indiana with his wife, Judy, and their five daughters. He supported Trump in all of his past presidential campaigns. So he wasn’t quite ready for what followed.
Buck: Nobody thought that we would be under this kind of a media blitz that was nothing but pure, bold-faced lies. I mean, anybody that knew me knew I was one of the most conservative senators in the Indiana Senate. Anybody that knew me knew I was not a liberal. Anybody that knew me knew I wasn’t a RINO. Anybody that knew me knew I wasn’t pathetic.
But if you tell a lie enough times, even in the political world, perception becomes reality. And no one ever in Indiana’s history has had this kind of money thrown at them in a primary. In my race, it’s alleged, $1.3 million.
That’s a hill to climb that’s never been climbed before. So it’s totally uncharted territory. How do you fight back?
Rosin: Powell had the support and funding of outside groups. And had the endorsement of President Trump.
Meanwhile, Buck had found an endorsement from another familiar name. Someone who had been close to Trump and had found himself in a similar situation once before.
Buck: Mike Pence has been a friend of ours for years. Mike called me wanting to know how things were going, and I said, Well, God’s still in charge. (Laughs.) And he wanted to know what he could do to help me.
Well, I said, Mike, I was told you aren’t endorsing anybody. He said, Who told you that? I said, Well, that’s just my understanding. I said, If you’d endorse me, I’d love it. Well, he said, I’ll tell you like I’ve told others: Now that endorsement can go both ways. And I said, Mike, friendship and loyalty mean the world to me. I said, I’ll stand with you no matter what. I said, I understand January 6th more now than I did then. But I said, I’d be delighted to have your endorsement.
So now we just live in that era where you really don’t know who your friends are anymore.
Rosin: Pence had paid a political price. Just as Buck would.
News Reporter (From CBS4 Indy): The 2026 Indiana primaries making history ousting more state senate incumbents in one night than in the past quarter century combined. Most of the candidates had challengers endorsed by President Trump…
Rosin: Last month, Buck lost to Powell by nearly 30 percent. It was a blowout.
Steve Kornacki (from NBC News): And wow has Powell absolutely—he’s not just beaten Buck, he has clobbered him tonight…
Rosin: On Election Night, did you expect the results? How did you hear them?
Buck: Well, for those of us who’ve been at it a while, you get a tenor of what’s coming.
And the early results weren’t very favorable. But like I told Judy when we went, I said, Remember this: Win or lose, God’s still in control. This is not our office; it’s the people’s office. And so that’s the way we viewed it. Disappointed, yes, ’cause I love the Senate. And I love my colleagues. And I love what I’ve been able to accomplish in the Senate.
But there was a point where Judy and I like to hold hands a lot, and I squeezed her hands and I said, Well, we think we know what our speech is gonna be later.
Buck (in concession speech): I do wanna let you know this straight up, God’s good. Amen. He doesn’t make any mistakes, and when you put your trust and faith in Him, every day is coming your way is a good day. This is a good day because we believe strongly in democracy. We believe strongly in the ballot box…
Rosin: We listened to your concession speech. One phrase that struck me is—you said, “This is a good day.”
Buck: Yeah.
Rosin: Why was it a good day? I mean, from everything you’ve said up to this point, the wrong thing happened that day: The people who stood up for what they believed in, the people who looked at the maps and saw the truth lost their races.
Buck: Yeah.
Rosin: So what did you mean by “this is a good day?”
Buck: Well, we are still a democratic republic. We are still a free people. And any time you can have—in this country or any country—where people can freely go to the polls and vote as they perceive their vote to be for their good. And then you get to see the results of that free and open election. My friend, that’s a good day. That’s a good day.
Rosin: Do you have any regrets about how you went through this?
Buck: Well, I wish I’d never had to go through it. (Laughs.) I can’t imagine anybody saying, Oh, you know, this is a real treat. I’d love to do it again.
Rosin: But any regrets about how you went through it? Your decisions?
Buck: My decision? No.
Rosin: No.
Buck: No.
[Music]
Rosin: Russell, we spoke to Jim Buck who is one of those Indiana state senators who voted no on redistricting and then lost. Although he did end on this hopeful thought, which is, democracy will win out. Does that strike you as realistic? Pollyannish, given where we are now?
Berman: It strikes me as both. Is that possible to say?
Rosin: Totally.
Berman: Yes and yes, right?
Rosin: Yes.
Berman: Because in the realistic sense that yes, he’s right, is that look at what’s happening. We’re seeing sort of normal politics happen where Trump is unpopular. He has less juice in the Senate, so to speak. The Republicans are likely to lose at least some power, which means the president will lose some power in the midterm elections. We’re hearing less and less talk of President Trump running for a third time.
But in another respect, as we’ve talked about, Trump is still this really dominant figure within his party. This gerrymandering war and what the Supreme Court has done could end up protecting some of his—and a lot of his—power. And so there is still a question about whether he’s going to be a traditional, typical lame duck president as we get into the last two years of his term, which would be sort of the normal democratic way, at least as we know it in this country, or whether he’s going to be exceptional, right? And he’s gonna continue to push the bounds, for example, of executive authority, ignoring Congress, going around the courts in a way that makes people feel like he’s an authoritarian.
And so I think it’s still a little bit unclear, but we are seeing a lot of normal politics and a normal sort of democracy happening right now.
[Music]
Rosin: Russell, thank you so much for joining us.
Berman: Thanks for having me.
Rosin: This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Jinae West. It was edited by Kevin Townsend. Sam Fentress fact-checked. Rob Smierciak engineered and provided original music. We also had music from Breakmaster Cylinder.
Claudine Ebeid is the executive producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
Listeners, if you enjoy the show, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to The Atlantic at TheAtlantic.com/Listener.
I’m Hanna Rosin. Thank you for listening.
The post Is the GOP Starting to Defy Trump? appeared first on The Atlantic.
