It’s not easy to build a long and lucrative career by making comedy that some people might be tempted to call silly or sophomoric. If it were, more comedians would be as successful as Marlon Wayans. Wayans, the youngest sibling in a family dynasty that also includes his brothers Damon, Shawn and Keenen Ivory Wayans and his sister Kim Wayans, has over the course of his 30-plus-year career scored in nearly every format. He has starred in broad sitcoms (the WB’s “The Wayans Bros.”), irreverent sketch comedy (“In Living Color”) and slapstick movies (“White Chicks”; the first two installments in the “Scary Movie” franchise), and released three, let’s say, Rabelaisian standup specials. His newest effort in that realm, “Good Grief,” will premiere on Amazon Prime Video on June 4.
In that special, Wayans, who has also carved out an impressive sideline as a supporting dramatic actor in films, is branching out by using comedy to work through some seriously heavy emotions. “Good Grief” is all about the death of his parents as well as the nearly 60 other loved ones he has lost in recent years.
When I talked with Wayans, he was in Albuquerque, where he was filming a psychological horror movie for Jordan Peele’s Monkeypaw production company — and, ahead of the first of our two conversations, getting ready to host a party for the cast and crew.
Since you’re having a party tonight, it seems perfectly natural to talk about the subject of your new special: the death of your parents. Isn’t that crazy? Other people are like, What’s your next special? “Oh, it’s a funny journey about the death of my parents.” But it wasn’t just the death of my parents. I lost 58 people that I loved in a matter of three years. It felt, like, biblical.
How do you find the funny thing in the sad thing? It’s been a gift since I was a kid. I mean, all of us Wayanses, we’re crazy people. The worst thing happens, and the first thing we’d think is What’s funny about it? I remember when my cousin Ceddy died and my auntie buried him in jeans and a T-shirt and some Air Force 1s and a baseball cap. Damon looks and goes, “If there’s a dress code in heaven, I don’t think Ceddy’s getting in.”
Are there elements of the new special that you could point to and say, This is the kind of material that I couldn’t have done five or 10 years ago? I think as a comedian, I’m getting to the good stuff. When you talk about real-life pain, like parents passing, and you can get through that set and you can still be irreverent, edgy, crazy, silly, thought-provoking and vulnerable, I think that’s growth. I miss my parents dearly, but I’m a different human with my parents gone than I was when they were here. Now I’m a man. I don’t have parents anymore, so I live differently. I understand the quality of life. I don’t look at my phone as much. I walk. I pray more, because when I pray I feel like I’m speaking to my parents and that they’re listening. I let them know what’s going on.
So the key to self-improvement is simple: Have your parents die. [Laughs.] You know what’s crazy? My mother’s death broke me. It shattered me into a million pieces, because that was my girl. I never got married, because I never wanted my mother to be jealous of a woman. I never wanted my mother to feel second to any woman.
You know that’s the reason you never got married? Oh, absolutely. That was one of five reasons. And Mom was very needy. I told my mother on her deathbed, “I never got married because I always wanted you to be my No. 1 girl.” Those were my last words. I said, “Take that to heaven with you.”
I realize as we’re talking, we’re not really making the case that this a particularly funny special. It’s an hour and seven minutes. It’s hilarious for about an hour and five, and then you have spread throughout, two to maybe three minutes of heart. I’m proud of this special because it’s going to make you feel. I think that’s more important than making you laugh. You want to move somebody. I’m crazy and I know it. I can be inappropriate and I know it. In order for me to hit the different levels of comedy, you got to be somewhat offensive. But when you hit that frequency that speaks to the heart — it’s so relatable.
You said to reach certain levels of comedy, you’ve got to be offensive. There is material in the special — I’m thinking of the Magic Johnson-AIDS material. By the way, he has H.I.V., not AIDS. You can’t be super on point with the facts when you’re telling jokes. Sometimes you just tell the jokes, man. What’s crazy is I’ve had friends and relatives that died from AIDS, and so part of that joke is finding humor in things that happen. It’s a different way to look at something tragic. I think the world has forgot how to laugh. We’re grooming people to be sensitive. But I find when I’m in a comedy club, people like to laugh. They like to laugh at those dark things, the Magic jokes. People want to laugh again.
You have this series of jokes framing it like, basically, Magic’s life got better after he got sick, but you throw in a line about sex with monkeys. That was one where I cringed. I didn’t say he had sex with monkeys. I said, I don’t know how he got this good version of this disease, but however he got that, I want that. I don’t care how he got it. It could have been a girl. Could have been from soup. It could have been from — show me the monkey he [expletive], I got next. To me, that was escapism. Because it’s not real. Of course he didn’t have sex with a monkey. If you read into every joke, if you get literal, everybody’s going to be offended. There’s about 72 things in that special to be offended by. I hope that Magic laughs the loudest at the joke. Which he will. Magic has a great sense of humor. I think part of it is, it’s all out there. I’m not telling secrets. I’m just going, Here’s a different way to look at it. I rescued myself from depression by learning to laugh in my worst circumstances. Losing my parents broke me, and I’m telling the audience, Here’s how you can survive this: Find humor in everything.
The idea of the culture getting too sensitive is one that people have been talking about for a while. I’m interested in digging into that. Because what we might say is “too sensitive” could also be understood as the culture being made safe for people who didn’t feel safe before. You have a trans son, right? Mm-hmm.
Sensitivity around how we talk and think about transgender people is directly related to a change in the culture that allows your son to live the life that he wants to live. Absolutely.
These things are connected. How do you see that connection? I’m working on a beautiful hour about that — about the transition. I went through it, and the transition wasn’t about their transition. It was my transition — going from opposing what they wanted to complete acceptance. It was the five stages of grief. I felt like I was losing my daughter. My daughter was dying in my eyes. I speak about this in a very hilarious, irreverent way. I take you through the five stages of grief and midway through the act, after denial, after anger, when I get to bargaining, that’s when the whole set flips. Because the people that are angry or in denial, they’re all on my side as the parent at first, and I’m talking in complete ignorance. Then the whole set makes a complete 180, because it’s about me getting to acceptance. Try to get to acceptance as quickly as possible. It took me all of a week.
Sounds like a busy week. It was. “You can’t do this; you can’t do that; I’m not supporting it.” I was that guy, and I’m ashamed to say it, because in my eyes I was protecting my child. Not understanding that all I was doing was creating distance, and that’s not fair to them. Who am I to stand in this person’s way and tell them what’s right for their life? I’m a parent, and the only thing I can do as a parent is be an example — to love my child and hope that other parents do the same.
Did your experience with your son — what pronouns does your son use? He and they.
Did that change your thinking about comedy and who gets made fun of and how and when to push buttons? Yes and no. I think a comedian has the right to have their point of view, just as people have their right to have their point of view. I don’t get offended by anybody’s humor. I think that Don Rickles did a lot of racist jokes, but man, that was a really funny racist. I’m all for comedians developing their point of view, no matter how ignorant, small, inconsiderate, dark. They have to do this, because if nobody tries to find the funny, then society’s missing out on humor.
There are certain comedians — I’m thinking of Ricky Gervais, Dave Chappelle — where it seems like material about transgender people, it’s the taboo that they need to keep pushing at to show that they’re willing to push at a taboo. I don’t think it’s the taboo that they’re pushing at. They just want to say what the hell they want to say. Dave is a friend of mine. I have a trans child. I’m not going to not be Dave’s friend because of his point of view. He’s a comedian. Me and my child had this conversation, and they understood. I said, as a comedian, he has every right to say what he wants to say and try to find the humor in what he’s saying. I don’t think his intention is to make you feel bad. I think he’s just trying to protect his right to say what he feels. We don’t have to think alike. You’re still my friend. And I think we have to learn to laugh again.
I think the idea that we don’t laugh anymore is fundamentally wrong. If you take social media, for example, it’s joke after joke after joke. The question is really what are those jokes saying and — Who’s telling the joke.
Who’s telling the joke, and what are they trying to convey? That feels to me like the more germane question. People don’t tell the same jokes they used to at work. There’s no water-cooler talk anymore. You know what I mean?
When’s the last time you were at a water-cooler? I got one in my house!
Oh, does your assistant laugh at your jokes? [Laughs.] But I think now when you walk on sets, everybody’s tight. Nobody wants to offend. Nobody wants to say anything. There’s no joy. That’s why I love performing on a stage, because it’s a reminder to me: People still want to laugh. There’s nothing like that elation that you get when you don’t know if this joke is going to offend everybody — are they going to hate this? And you tell it, and everybody cracks up, and you’re like, whew. It’s like dodging death for an hour and a half. It’s just when you get into the corporate setting or sometimes when you go home, it’s even then, “You can’t say that.” You got your kids telling you, “Dad, that’s inappropriate.” That’s inappropriate to you, you little [expletive]. I pay the rent here. It’s OK for me to be inappropriate. My inappropriateness has paid for your college.
It seems that both in standup and in film, comedy now has to be about something in addition to being funny. What’s changed? If you look at Hollywood, for the past 10 years, there hasn’t been a lot of comedies. Because Hollywood — they were chasing the superhero. They were chasing the blockbuster. I’m very patient, because I know everything is cyclical. They’re going to make comedies again. But the people that’s going to make the comedies are the people that know how to make the comedies. They keep trying to make, like, “Scary Movie.” The audience is like, That don’t taste like the Wayans; I’m not going. Because they know we know how to tell these jokes. This is a family recipe that we’ve had. You can’t replicate what we do. You can have all the seasonings. You don’t know how much to put on it.
The new “Scary Movie” that was just announced, is that irritating to you? No. If they want to waste $50 million, go for it.
Do you get a check from that? No, that’s a whole ’nother conversation. I like to say that, you know, those Weinsteins, they’re — [Laughs] — it wasn’t just [Wayans pauses] — they raped everybody.
Not the same. Businesswise.
Not the same. Businesswise. Literally and businesswise. We all got a little taste. They were some terrible people.
Good example of an offensive joke! Damn, Dave, you sensitive! [Laughs.] I’m going to take you to a Ricky Gervais show and a Dave Chappelle show and I’m just going to sit next to you and watch when you go, “Oh, God.”
Do me, being sensitive, in a “white guy” voice. [Wayans adopts his offended white-guy voice, which cracks me up.] You can’t say that. Jesus H. Christ. That’s inappropriate. [Laughs.]
Can you tell me a funny party story? A funny party story?
I feel as if you’ve been to a few parties. I’ve been to too many parties. Oh, I saw Tupac 20 minutes before he got shot and, ironically, I saw Biggie 20 minutes before he got shot. I mean, it’s not funny, but wow, what a coincidence.
Is that true? Yeah.
That’s not funny. Twenty minutes from now you may get shot.
Wait, can I try an offensive joke on you? Go for it.
You had 58 loved ones die recently? Yes.
Ever think the problem is you? Are you contagious? [Laughs.] They want to get the hell away from me!
58 people? 60, if you include Tupac and Biggie.
Are you counting anyone that you admired as a “loved one”? “Oh, Tina Turner died? She’s No. 55.” [Laughs.] No, she wasn’t one of the people. Some of those people were. Chadwick [Boseman] was a friend. That was a hard one. It’s crazy when you think about how many people have passed. That’s what made me do this special. We need to laugh about it. I needed therapy, and it was therapy for me. I still hurt, but man. [Wayans starts to cry.] The last time I cried about my mom and my dad was on set recently, and that’s because my director — he’s a sick man — he wanted to incite some feelings and he said, Just think about how proud your mom and dad are of you right now. And I thought about how I showed up in their absence for my family, and how I was able to help bury them, help my older siblings get through, help my nephews and my nieces, just show up for everybody. I think that’s what they raised me to be, and that’s what they’d be proud of.
I appreciate you showing that emotion. I’m sorry you’re going through that. But it’s really good for me, for the podcast, if you cry a bit more audibly. I’d appreciate that. [Laughs.] I like you. You’re going to be my friend, Dave.
But thank you for that openness. You want to leave on a high note. But that was a joyful cry.
Good. I do miss them, but I know they would be proud.
Five days later, Wayans and I talked again.
I was thinking about a moment where I asked you about no longer being involved with the “Scary Movie” franchise and you mentioned Harvey Weinstein, who you believe strong-armed you out of the series. When you brought it up — Actually it was Bob and Harvey. Go ahead, I’m sorry.
It was clear you were loading up a joke, and you had this pause where you were thinking about whether to say the joke. In that moment — when you have the potentially offensive joke lined up — what is going through your head? Who’s my audience? And I heard you cringe on the monkey joke. But I was gonna say: [Wayans tells a joke about the Weinstein brothers that we can’t publish].
Oof. Do you see? Do you see your response? Me and my brother, we used to be in a writer’s room. We’ve always been edgy with our humor. So when people have that reaction, like, Oh, God, we used to call that “getting on a whitey bike.” Brothers would crack up at that, but white people: Oh, I don’t know about that, and they start pedaling backward.
I don’t know if the “whitey bike” is the bike I ride on because — Just the fact that you said it made me laugh.
Because I’m not offended. But when somebody says the taboo thing, you go, Whew, are you allowed to say that? That’s different from taking offense. But what is taboo? When you’ve been in a situation — I can talk about things from a different perspective. When I talk about Bob and Harvey and I say that, it’s because there’s damage there. Because we have been victims. But in business, not physically. I think a monster is a monster, and those monsters showed up in business as well. [Bob Weinstein disputes that Wayans was strong-armed or that the negotiations were cutthroat.]
You know, in the “Good Grief” special, you talked about how you learned to be a man from your dad. And here with me you talked about how finding a way to move forward after your parents died also helped you grow into manhood. But I’m curious what you learned about manhood and masculinity from your son. It’s OK to be in touch with your feminine. It’s OK to be vulnerable. It’s OK to unstrap from your masculinity and your ego. Sometimes that takes you to have a different approach. Sometimes it’s not about trying to teach them. Maybe God’s trying to teach you something. It’s OK to have those stupid thoughts, small feelings, those insecure things — those egotistical thoughts like, Nah, I think I can control everything. Then God breaks you down, and life breaks you down, and when you realize you’re on your knees, that’s when God can whisper to you, and you’re like, Oh, that’s what you’re trying to teach me.
Do you remember the last thing God said to you? My God speaks to me every day. He’s in everything I do, even in my jokes, even in the darkness. God gave me a gift, which is to stay joyful through dark things, and I’m going to give that gift as much as I can. In the worst moments, I was able to try and find a smile and hold my hand up through the rubble and go, Hey, guys, take this one with you.
This interview has been edited and condensed from two conversations. Listen to and follow “The Interview” on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon Music or the New York Times Audio app.
The post Grief Broke Marlon Wayans. Comedy Put Him Back Together. appeared first on New York Times.