This is the debut of The Interview, The New York Times’s new weekly series, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people. Each week, David Marchese or Lulu Garcia-Navarro will speak with notable figures in the worlds of culture, politics, business, sports, wellness and beyond. Like the magazine’s former Talk column, the conversations will appear online and in print, but now you can also listen to them in our new weekly podcast, “The Interview,” which is available wherever you get your podcasts. Below, you’ll find Lulu’s first interview with the Israeli opposition leader Yair Lapid; David’s first interview, with the actress Anne Hathaway, is here.
Since Hamas attacked Israel on Oct. 7, killing more than 1,000 Israelis and capturing more than 200 hostages, Israel’s response has been swift and brutal. More than 30,000 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed, a majority of them civilians, according to the local authorities. Most of Gaza’s infrastructure has been destroyed, and international pressure is mounting on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to end the war, and to avoid a new war with Iran.
In this moment, I wanted to talk to one of Netanyahu’s most vocal critics inside Israel: Yair Lapid. Lapid is the official leader of the Israeli opposition. He’s a former journalist, TV host and actor who entered Israeli politics over a decade ago, founding a centrist party called Yesh Atid. He briefly became prime minister of Israel in 2022 — at the time, The Atlantic deemed him “the man who could end the Netanyahu era” — and he remains a member of the Knesset. After Oct. 7, he refused to join Netanyahu’s war cabinet. He has called for new elections to replace the current government. And he has publicly endorsed a two-state solution — something Netanyahu has actively worked against.
Lapid and I spoke twice this month, soon after he came to the United States to meet with Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and the Senate majority leader, Chuck Schumer. In our first conversation, Lapid made clear that he opposes Netanyahu but not how Israel is waging its war. When we spoke again, I pressed him on his defense of the war, and he told me why he feels Israel is so misunderstood.
Before we dig in on specifics, can you just tell me, as an Israeli leader, as an Israeli citizen, how you’re feeling about this moment in Israeli history? I mean, we’ve seen a slew of unprecedented things happen.
How do I feel about this? As an Israeli, I’m as worried as I’ve ever been. I feel the fragility of our society. I meet with the hostage families and discuss with them the endless pain and fear and agony they have. And of course, there’s no way for me not to imagine being in their place if my children were there or my mother was there, held by a terror organization. And I’m haunted by memories of Oct. 7, by the implications on our security.
As a political leader, I’m worried, but a different kind of worried, because I don’t think we have the right leadership to handle the moment. I feel a little uncomfortable discussing this in English with The New York Times, because traditionally we used to say, no, we’re not going to get into Israeli politics while dealing with the international media, but this is so extreme. And so painful. And on top of this, I feel misunderstood.
You personally? Or the country?
Both, but mostly the country. We are fighting an existential war. I don’t think people understand the level of fear and angst — I mean the international community, the international media. It is horrifying to me to see this footage of young people marching on American campuses, shouting, “From the river to the sea.” And then you ask them, Do you know what river it is or what sea it is? And they have no clue. They’re putting us on the side of the bad guys without even knowing what happened, what we have been going through. So if you feel that there’s a mixture of feelings that I’m describing, you’re right. It’s a mixture, but none of it is really great.
I want to ask you how you think Mr. Netanyahu has handled relations with the current U.S. administration. I mean, it could be argued that the prime minister’s government has, at certain moments, almost tried to embarrass the Biden administration. I’m thinking of when Secretary of State Blinken went to Tel Aviv and on the same day a new settlement expansion in the West Bank was announced. Biden has been a real friend to Bibi, but is Bibi a friend to Biden?
No. And it is heartwarming the way the president has handled this, because he was able to maintain the idea that supporting Israel is his historic role as an American president. And he’s done so in an election year, which is even more impressive to me, because right now, part of what is so dangerous in the current phase of the relations is that — I’ll put it this way: I don’t think Israel is going to be the reason for anyone to win or lose in the American election. But if President Biden loses the election, a lot of people in the Democratic Party are going to say it’s because of Israel. Or at least this is going to be one of the claims. And then Israel, instead of being an electoral value or an advantage, has become a liability, which is horrible.
You blame that on Prime Minister Netanyahu or you blame that on the war itself? Because we’ve seen an impassioned pro-Palestinian movement here in the U.S. that fundamentally seems to have shifted the way the public views Israel.
Well, blame is complicated. First and foremost, I blame it on a cynical radical Islamic movement that is using the lack of knowledge from American youngsters, who are buying this as part of an ongoing struggle between the oppressors and those who are oppressed, or between white privileged people and people who are not. We keep telling them: Anne Frank was not a white privileged kid. And the story is not what you are told, and how come you’re marching in favor of people who want to kill Jews because they’re Jews? Because this is the way Hamas, Hezbollah and the Islamic Jihad are. And they’re supporting them against the democratic country. This is, to me, unbelievable in so many ways.
But I also blame an Israeli government who doesn’t understand or doesn’t seem to care about its primary duty to make this easier for those who support us in the United States to be supportive. Not, for example, making sure settlers’ violence is restrained, not making sure we’re doing what needs to be done in terms of explaining what is really happening in the war in Gaza. And not doing the simple things like saying: Yes, our heart is broken when children are dying in Gaza. Because children are not supposed to die in grown-ups’ wars, and because we have no war with children. And we try to do our utmost to avoid hurting the innocent. This is a very dense, populated area. This is a very cruel war against an enemy that uses his own people, his own children as human shields, and casualties are sometimes inevitable. But we are sorry. And the ridiculous thing is we are doing our best. The Israeli Defense Army is doing its best to avoid this. And yet the government is not saying so out loud, because they’re afraid of some ignorant, populist voices that might say they are soft on handling the war. This is just outrageous to me.
You say that Israel is sorry for the great loss of Palestinian life, but one of the big problems, not only here in the United States but globally, is that very fact: that there has been a restriction of aid, that Israel has been using massive bombs in the Gaza Strip, and, as you note, it is densely populated. That Gaza has been flattened. Do you agree with the measures taken so far and the conduct of the war?
Well, there’s no simple answer. Basically, we should have pushed inside Gaza more aid, and we are doing so now, after way too long. But there’s something to be said before that. What is the alternative? Right now, to engage in this war has only one alternative, and this is being murdered. We never asked for this war. We never wanted this war, and we only went for this war because our children were burned alive. Because our elderly were killed. Because we have, even right now, still hostages in the terror tunnels. And they raped women, and they conquered villages. And more than that, they have openly said — they meaning Hamas — that if they have a chance, they’ll do it again. And therefore we are in Gaza to make sure it will never happen again.
As I hear you speaking, I hear things that remind me of certain comments that I’ve heard Mr. Netanyahu make.
Oh, now we’re going into insults. [laughs]
You very deliberately did not join the war cabinet. Can you tell me why? You lead the opposition, and just hearing you speak about your defense of the conduct of the war, I’m wondering what you are in opposition to?
Part of it is because somebody has to say out loud, We have to maintain our democratic spine. We have to make sure we are handling this at least the best we can, and we have to understand that the future lies also with discussing this with other Palestinians, like the Palestinian Authority. This country needs someone who will speak about the future in different terms. We need in this country somebody who will be able to talk to the American administration or to the American political realm in a different language. And besides, I feel that Prime Minister Netanyahu is part of what led us to or has a huge responsibility for what led us to the current situation. And sitting behind him and becoming a front or legitimizing his premiership doesn’t seem like a good idea.
But I’m an Israeli patriot. I think the Israeli Army is conducting itself in terrible, sometimes impossible circumstances in an honorable way and doing its best to avoid hurting the innocent. And therefore I feel obligated to defend the way the Israeli Defense Forces are dealing with themselves. On the other hand, when something terrible happens, like when Israel accidentally killed the employees of the World Kitchen organization, I will be the first one to say: Listen, we are sorry. This shouldn’t have happened. And to demand there will be an investigation, to demand that there will be results to these investigations. So I think this voice is necessary. But I think I did the right thing, staying out of government.
You have called for new elections. But meanwhile, the situation with Iran has escalated. It’s no longer a shadow war where the two parties avoid direct conflict. What do you think needs to happen? Do you still think there needs to be new elections?
Yes. This is not ideal, of course, to have an election when the fighting is still going on and we don’t know where it’s going. But we’re only dealing now, and we have dealt with since Oct. 7, bad options. And basically, we don’t have the right government for the challenges we have. So we have to make the effort and replace this government with a government that can deal with the war, with the Iranians, with the relations with the American administration, and recreate and rejuvenate the alliance we have with the moderate Sunni states. And for this to happen, we need to have a discussion that talks both about the Iranians and the Palestinians. Because this is their demand, and this is also for our own good. We need to be able to tell them, Yes, we are going to work with the Palestinian Authority. And we’re going to start in Gaza, because we have to rebuild and reconstruct Gaza and rehabilitate Gaza.
So what should happen to Gaza and the Palestinians after the war? Who should pay for the rebuilding? Who should govern it? Where should the displaced people go?
Well, we should build an alliance of, as I said, the moderate Sunni states, the Palestinian Authority, the international community, the United States, the European Union, whoever is these days showing so much concern, and Israel, in order to start rebuilding and replacing Hamas. Because as long as Hamas is there and Hamas is active and Hamas has control over the territory, there will be no future for the people of Gaza. They have to understand this. In 2021, I presented a plan that was named Economy for Security, which meant let’s give the people of Gaza an economic future in return of displacing Hamas with something more positive —
I just want to jump in here. You’re talking about what has been a very old idea. The idea of giving economic prosperity to the Palestinians has been bandied about for decades. But very little of this debate has been about the occupation. For many years, including when you were prime minister, there was a sense that when it came to the Palestinians, the status quo could simply be accepted and ignored. The idea that Palestinians would want their own self-determination, their own state, could be put aside and that somehow economic prosperity could be a substitution. Do you think that idea was wrong? Were you wrong?
Well, I never said this, so I wasn’t wrong.
Well, you just said it now, that economics —
No, no. You asked me about Gaza specifically. The problem in Gaza specifically is the rebuilding of Gaza. But I always said the difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians is that the Israelis’ main concern is security. The Palestinians’ main concern is self-recognition and respect. And I understand this. And I understand that in the end what we need is to have two states, living in peace, one next to each other. One should be stronger than the other, where the other one should be demilitarized. I support in the long term, and after all security measurements have been implemented, the idea that these two people will separate. I want to separate from them. It’s not a favor I’m doing the Palestinians. It’s for my own good. And separating from the Palestinians should come from a position of power because of the horrific events that happened to us lately and not so lately.
When I called Lapid back a few days later, I wanted to ask him more about what kind of opposition he represents.
As we’ve been talking, what I’ve heard is, as it comes to the war, there’s really not a lot of opposition at all. Israel is being accused of genocide, of war crimes. And as we’ve talked, you’ve defended the conduct of the war. And you’ve referred to yourself as an Israeli patriot. But I suppose my question is: Can patriotism not also be defined as questioning the conduct of this war?
Of course it can. I assume what I was reacting to is what I feel is the betrayal of the intellectuals. Meaning that the intellectuals of the West, or some of them, have betrayed the idea of complexity. Because what I think is that — and this is my duty as the leader of the Israeli opposition, to tell the Israeli government — you need to handle this war better than you do now. We understand the need, of course, to defend the country, to defend the people, to react to what happened on Oct. 7 and to eliminate all of Hamas’s military capabilities. And on the other hand, to stay what we are, which is a democracy that is doing its best in terms of defending the idea of humanity. And, as we have discussed, defend this in circumstances that are no less than horrible. And the dialogue we have with the outside world is either with people who are chanting slogans they don’t really understand or who are determined to make this into a one-sided story.
No, Israel is not committing genocide. No, Israel is not doing anything but defend itself in a war we didn’t want. And these are not pro-government statements. This is just the reality of people who are hurting. The fact that I oppose the government so much doesn’t mean I need to oppose the idea of self-defense.
What I’m thinking about actually is just what it means in a moment like this to effectively, even if you care about Israel and the Israelis, say this is not OK. You know, earlier you disparaged the young people in the U.S. marching for Palestinian rights, and you say that they’re clueless and misled.
I don’t think they’re marching for Palestinian rights. I think they’re marching against Palestinian rights. I think what they’re doing is against the best interest of the Palestinian people.
Doesn’t that dismiss their legitimate concerns about civilian deaths?
Well, I think they should learn the facts. I think they should understand that there is a reason why everything is happening, and the reason is Hamas. The reason is not Israel. I mean, not to be able to even track why what is happening is happening is a total lack of even, I don’t know, intellectual dignity or at least curiosity.
And you know, I was thinking after our first discussion. I was trying to figure out because I told myself: Well, at one point or another, I was defensive, and she was defensive. Why was it? So I don’t know about you, but I know about myself. And the reason is because I refuse to be involved in the contest, which is: Who is the victim? I am done being a victim. I’m done being a victim since June 1945. So the thing is that now, in order to get the sympathy and the empathy of the Western world, I have to remind them every five seconds that we are the victims in this is, to me, is a horrible idea. I’d rather tell them, Listen, we’re fighting for our life, and we’re going to do whatever is necessary in order to win this fight, because we are done being victims.
Now, the more popular thing to do is to go into a fist fight with the Palestinians about the question, Who’s hurting more? But this is a pleasure I’m not going to give anyone. So maybe this is why I became a bit frustrated, because I was supposed to prove that I am more of a victim than the Palestinians. I’m no victim. I’m a proud citizen of a great country who is fighting for its life, and in terrible circumstances, while trying our best not to hurt the Palestinians, because they are living here with us and we need to find ways to make sure they have a future as well.
It’s always struck me as a fundamental disconnect, because Israel doesn’t feel there is enough acknowledgment of the existential threat that they’re under. You’re articulating this right now. And Israel’s critics on the Palestinian question want Israel to see that it can’t be a true democracy with real security when it oppresses and occupies millions of Palestinians. Can you understand that point of view?
Of course. And since you have covered Israel, then you know, unlike others, the numerous times now that Israel has offered the Palestinians statehood, and they refused again and again and again and again.
But, you know, there’s another version of this story.
Yeah, there is another version of this story, but it’s not the right one. And I was involved, so I know.
I want to tell you something else. I walked one day to a meeting with a very smart foreign minister. It was years ago. She was one of the smartest people I know, and she came into the room, and she started the conversation by telling me, We recognize Israel’s right to defend itself. And I said, Why are you saying this? And she said, What do you mean? I said: Do you go into a meeting with the French foreign minister and tell him that you recognize France’s right to defend itself? Is there any other country you tell that they have a right to defend itself? Why are you emphasizing the fact? I wasn’t angry with her. I was just curious about the question. Why is it that she felt the need to tell me that I’m entitled to defend myself and not to die silently? You and I have succeeded, which is a great success, to go this far into our conversation without mentioning the possibility that maybe it is because we are Jews. But maybe it is because we are Jews.
This is something I’ve heard a lot from Jews outside of Israel and obviously inside Israel. But you also know the other side of this, which is that many Palestinians look at the context of the occupation, look at how they have been treated and say that this context isn’t as simple as who is the victim of this particular cycle of violence.
Well, I don’t want this cycle of violence. And no Israeli in his right mind — we have our own fair share of lunatics, I’m not going to defend them — but the majority of Israelis doesn’t want this cycle of violence. And if somebody will enable us to separate from the Palestinians — meaning, if we will have somebody to talk to on the Palestinian side about separating — there will be a vast majority of Israelis for this separation.
What you’re hearing is frustration because I cannot seem to put my mind around the fact that five minutes after the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, we are already defending ourselves from people who are telling us, Well, we question your right to defend yourself, because you are part of the white privileged world and therefore you are not entitled to self-defense. It doesn’t make sense to me. It frustrates me. And I hate the idea that I keep telling myself that I’m glad that my father is not alive to see this.
Your father, Tommy Lapid, who was a minister.
And a Holocaust survivor.
I remember him well.
His entire life was the way out of the basement in the Budapest ghetto, which the Nazis put him in. And if he was alive now, he would be locked with me and my daughter with special needs in the basement of my house, because somebody is trying to kill us again. The fact that we do not seem to be able to rescue ourselves from being locked in a basement surrounded by people who wants to kill us is pretty, pretty frustrating for the people of Israel.
This is my last question, a question about the future. A poll by the Israel Democracy Institute shows that 63 percent of the Jewish Israeli public now does not support an independent Palestinian state. You say that is because of the history, and that very well may be true. And you’ve made it very clear where you stand. You want to see the Netanyahu government resign. You do believe in a two-state solution. But it seems that even if Bibi goes, his politics remain popular. So where does that leave the opposition after this war and the very prospect of peace? How do you move Israelis to your side?
Politics can be, as you very well know, horrible, but sometimes very rarely also beautiful. And it is beautiful when you get a chance to change people’s minds, to talk to them, to be able to communicate to them new ideas. It’s always a battle of ideas. And it’s the only battle worth living for. I am, as I said and you quoted, I’m a patriot. And you’re right, patriotism is sometimes telling people what they don’t want to hear. This is what we’re going to try and do. We’re going to try and make the Netanyahu government go away, because it’s disastrous and dangerous and irresponsible, and nonfunctional on top of this. And then we’re going to tell the Israelis: We have to make a decision about our future, and this decision is going to be based on the idea that I discussed with you. That in order to stay the strongest country in the Middle East, we also need to stay the strongest democracy in the Middle East. And in order to be that democracy, we have to start the long journey, the first step of the 1,000-mile journey to separate from the Palestinians.
This interview has been edited and condensed from two conversations. Listen to and follow “The Interview” on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon Music or The New York Times Audio app.
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