On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Robert Costa, CBS Sunday Morning national correspondent and CBS News Washington analyst
- Sen. Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky
- Sen. Amy Klobuchar, Democrat of Minneosta
- Rep. Mike Turner, Republican of Ohio
- Sen. Tim Kaine, Democrat of Virginia
- Ty Cobb, President Trump’s former attorney
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: President Trump says another blue city needs federal protection. Plus, his opponents say he’s stepping up a campaign of political retribution.
President Trump now says that Portland, Oregon, is under siege and that he’s sending troops there to protect ICE. But will his solution cause new problems?
Back in Washington, Mr. Trump put his political opponents on notice after directing his Justice Department to indict former FBI Director James Comey for allegedly lying to Congress.
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DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): It’s not a list, but I think there will be others. I mean, they’re corrupt.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: But what can stop him from pursuing more cases?
We will talk with the head of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, Rand Paul.
Plus, as the clock ticks down again towards a possible government shutdown, this round of the Washington blame game has the potential to hurt more than just the two parties. This time, the Trump administration is threatening to fire, instead of furlough, some federal workers, unless Democrats support their funding bill.
Why won’t they? We will ask two key Democrats in the Senate, Minnesota’s Amy Klobuchar and Virginia’s Tim Kaine.
Overnight, Russia launches a massive attack involving hundreds of drones and missiles on Ukraine’s capital city. Republican Congressman Mike Turner just returned from the region, and he will join us.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
We have breaking news as we begin what is likely to be another turbulent week here in Washington. Congress faces a government shutdown deadline of October 1.
Our Robert Costa spoke this morning to President Trump.
Bob, top leaders, both parties, both sides of the Capitol, are coming to the White House. Did the president tell you he thinks a shutdown can be avoided?
ROBERT COSTA: A shutdown looks likely at this point, based on my conversation this morning with President Trump.
He says both sides are at a stalemate. Democrats want to extend health care subsidies that were part of the Affordable Care Act. But President Trump said his focus on health care is on preventing undocumented migrants from having access to any of the U.S. health care system.
Now, it’s illegal for any noncitizen to have that sort of access. But President Trump says, we’re not going to have it – quote – “We’re not going to allow it” in terms of moving forward on any discussion unless the Democrats come to his side on health care and don’t focus on the subsidies.
But, based on my conversations with top Democrats, that’s not going to happen. So President Trump told me – quote – “I just don’t know how we are going to solve this issue.”
That makes a shutdown quite likely. And inside the White House, sources are saying President Trump actually welcomes a shutdown, in the sense that he believes he can wield executive power to get rid of what he calls waste, fraud, and abuse. And there is that memo, as you mentioned, that says the government is ready to have mass firings if a deal isn’t struck.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Reductions in force, right.
Well, we also know that the president took some extraordinary public statements in the past few days. He publicly said he wants to see Adam Schiff, now a senator, Letitia James prosecuted, along with James Comey, the former FBI director, who is now indicted.
Yesterday, he twice posted on social media about former FBI Director Chris Wray. Did the president tell you, is he planning prosecutions?
ROBERT COSTA: I did not speak directly to the president about that today.
But fishing around all weekend in his inner circle, it’s clear this is just the beginning in terms of possible prosecutions of those who have scrutinized the president or criticized him over the years. You mentioned the mortgage policy potentially of Senator Adam Schiff of California. He’s being discussed inside of the Trump administration.
So is Letitia James, the New York attorney general, who sued the president over how he valued his real estate holdings. And there are others not even on our radar at this moment, like retired Joint Chiefs Chairman Mark Milley, who are being discussed as people who may have taken action against the administration or president in some way, allegedly, in the views of those inside, and they want to see the Justice Department hold them to account.
There’s such a gap right now in Washington. Republicans believe what President Trump is doing is accountability. Democrats are alarmed and see this as authoritarian government at work. And there’s a real tension there that’s not going away.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, and a justice system that has to deal with evidence and facts. And we’re going to talk about all of this ahead with some of our guests.
Robert Costa, thank you very much for your reporting.
We want to go now to the chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, Senator Rand Paul, who joins us from Bowling Green, Kentucky.
Good morning to you, Senator.
SENATOR RAND PAUL (R-Kentucky): Good morning. Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I want to start on that news you just heard that the president is basically expecting a shutdown and possibly to carry out these mass layoffs. Do you think all of this is just a threat to make Democrats fold?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Well, I think both sides have to look at the proposals for spending and decide, what is the best way forward for the country?
The Republican proposal adds about $2 trillion in debt over the next year, so it’ll be short $2 trillion. So, I oppose the Republican plan because it adds debt. The Democrat plan would add $3 trillion in debt. So, really, both plans are laden with deficit spending, and I think that’s the biggest problem that our country faces.
So I have actually proposed an alternative. I have proposed a penny plan, which would cut a little bit across the board, and my plan would balance over about five years. We got a vote on mine last week, and 36 Republicans supported it, 16 didn’t, and no Democrats did. So my plan didn’t pass either.
But the plan that I would support would be a plan that reduces spending and reduces deficit spending.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we have this immediate deadline, though, of this week, and we know leaders are going to the White House.
If we end up in this shutdown, do you think it is appropriate and legal for the executive to carry out the kind of mass firings that the budget director laid out in that memo this past week?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: You know, there’s been several cases adjudicated now all the way up to the Supreme Court, and the president seems to have won every one of them, on his ability to hire and fire within the executive branch.
And I think this is understandable, because, in the executive branch, if the president can’t fire them, who can? And so I think the president has a great deal of leeway over executive branch employees.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Without consulting Congress?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: For hiring and firing people in the executive branch, I think he has a great deal of leeway. The court has upheld this repeatedly. And so I suspect they will.
Even when Congress – the Democrats tried to protect this agency called the Consumer Financial Protection board. And they say, well, the funding will come from the Fed, you won’t get to vote on the funding and the person hired can’t be fired. Well, he did fire that person in 2020.
And the courts upheld that in 2021 in the Supreme Court. And really, since then, every case, he has won. And, as you know, I’m equal parts critic of both Republicans and Democrats.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: I have criticized Trump on things.
But the one thing is on the hiring and firing. And I think he’s going to win every one of those cases.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about your role in Homeland Security. You are chairman of that oversight committee.
The president announced yesterday, and I’m sure you saw his social media post, that he’s going to send troops to Portland, Oregon. He called it a war-ravaged city. He said he’s also going to send troops to any immigration facilities around the country which are – quote – “under siege from attack by Antifa and other domestic terrorists” – end quote.
He said he’s authorizing full force, if necessary. Do you know what full force means here? Do you know what’s in store?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: I think he has the legal authority to send troops to protect federal buildings and federal proceedings, such as courts. And that’s been around since the civil rights era. We have acknowledged that the federal government will sometimes come in, despite what states say.
I do think it’s better when the states agree to it, for example, I mean, in Chicago. Chicago is a nightmare. It is literally a war zone. And the people being hurt the worst are those who are poor and living in these communities. I have been to the most dangerous precinct in Chicago, and it’s just despair and sadness.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes, but then – but you haven’t been briefed on the plan for Oregon?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: And these young boys have grown up with no families. There’s no restaurants, no drugs.
Excuse me? Say again, please.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have not been briefed on plans to send troops to Oregon?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Not for Portland, no.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK, because we have not yet seen troops in Chicago, though you’re referencing the president’s past threats to do so.
In Oregon, the governor said there’s no need and they don’t want these troops. But the mayor said, the mayor of Portland, federal agents have been arriving, along with some armored vehicles. Are you comfortable with pushing the limits here of some of these uses of either potentially troops or federal agents?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: I think both the people in Portland and across America have to decide about this.
We had anarchy in Portland for like six months or a year. The city didn’t even control large swathes of the city. These had federal buildings on them. And so I think there is a role for the federal government. Am I excited about it? No, I’d prefer not to have troops in our cities, or I’d prefer them only to come with the acceptance of the local authorities.
But I do think there is a role if the states will not step up. Portland did not step up, and they let their city go. They let it burn, for goodness’ sakes. And then they let a whole area become the city – these blocks of anarchy, where some sort of local thug rule was going on.
So, I don’t know. I think, ultimately, what’s going to happen – and I think some of this is the president showing the politics of Republicans versus Democrats – is, eventually, cities like Chicago and Portland are going to give up on Democrats, because their people are dying.
It’s their people in their community. The people who’ve been supporting the Democrat Party for decade after decade, they are the ones dying.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: It’s not the people in the rich neighborhoods or the country club Republican. It’s poor people in every city who is dying, and the cities have to step up on this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it sounded – well, I’m asking about your oversight role, because it seemed like the president’s statement yesterday, it took a turn. It wasn’t how he talked about Chicago.
In fact, when he was speaking in this social media post about Portland, he used language here about domestic terrorists. And we know, just a few days ago, the president did issue that executive order saying he wanted to declare this anti-fascist group Antifa to be a domestic terrorist organization.
Have you seen evidence that these left-wing activists are now becoming a more organized group with national leadership, something the FBI has said in the past that they’re really more of an ideology?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Well, I think you lose the description as activists once you start wielding weapons and you show up with helmets and you’re breaking windows. That’s what was going on apparently in Portland at the ICE building.
I do think, though, that it’s important, when people start talking about labeling people, that we realize everybody, the worst among us, even those accused of heinous crimes, will get due process. So we can’t single out a group and say, oh, they’re not going to get due process because we’re calling them terrorists.
So I’d be careful of the labels, but I’m absolutely for going after the people wielding clubs and sticks and fighting with the police and trying to get into the federal buildings. They have to be punished, and they will be.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, do you have concerns, though, about designating groups with these anti-government sentiments as domestic terrorist groups? I mean, do you start worrying about Fourth Amendment violations?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: I don’t know that it’s helpful to label groups, particularly since Antifa – there are some real people in Antifa. They’re real, violent people.
But it is an amorphous group…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: … in the sense that I don’t think they have a president. They don’t have a local chapter. It is more an ideology.
And it was useful maybe around the world to call things terrorism, but there’s different rules of engagement. When we have to go after terrorists in the Middle East, we send a Hellfire missile or a drone often. In the United States, it’s much trickier to be a police – I have a great deal of respect for our police.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Because you’re right. They have to respect the Fourth Amendment, the First Amendment. And so we have to be careful with labels.
But it doesn’t mean we should go soft on Antifa…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: … and these people that are committing violence.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Senator Rand Paul, thank you for your time this morning.
Face the Nation will be back in a minute. Stay with us.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’re back with Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar. She is a member of Democratic leadership. And she joins us this morning from Minneapolis.
Good morning to you, Senator.
SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-Minnesota): Thanks, Margaret. Great to be on again.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we just heard from my colleague Robert Costa that the president indicated to him the likelihood of a shutdown and, with that, potentially mass firings.
Do you think this is posturing or do you worry your fellow Democrats are walking into a trap?
SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: I am glad the president has finally agreed to meet with the leadership in Congress. He canceled the meeting last week, which I think was a big mistake, because this is an opportunity for the country because of one big problem.
And that is that the Republicans have created a health care crisis. My constituents, Americans, are standing on a cliff right now with these insurance premium increases that are upon them. So, Democrats are united in pushing on this and saying, look, let us do something about this crisis before it is too late, 75 percent increase in premiums starting November 1 on people who are small business owners…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: … people who are farmers out there, twice as much in the rural areas.
So that’s what this is about to us. And the president prides himself in the art of a deal. This is the moment for him to meet with Democrats and come to an agreement.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So those premiums go up November 1. You’re talking about the extension of the health care subsidies. But insurance companies plan that a year out. So these premiums are already priced in here.
Why not agree to the government…
SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: Margaret, what we know is that these tax – if I could, just…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Go ahead.
SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: OK. Go ahead.
The tax credits are what really could make a difference here for people. Because of the fact that we know these premiums hit November 1, getting this done now is a now thing. It’s not a December thing. It’s not a January thing. It’s not an off-ramp. It is something we have to get done now.
As one of my farmers that I met with out in rural Minnesota said, when looking at the president’s tariffs and looking at what’s happened in farm country, five-year high in small farm bankruptcy, he said it’s a perfect storm of ugly. That’s where we are with the economy right now. And that’s why we are pushing on what is one of the biggest cost drivers for Americans…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: … in addition to groceries and electricity prices going up. It’s health care.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But, to be clear, you couldn’t take the seven-week funding and then negotiate that? You’re saying it has to be agreed to right now?
SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: We believe this is a now problem.
And while we are eager to talk with Senator Thune, I know Senator Schumer is, to get this moving, in the end, we know that they are a rubber stamp for what the president wants. Not everyone’s like Rand Paul going off in his own direction and talking about the debt out of the Big Beautiful Bill. I don’t agree with a lot of what he says, but he’s right about that debt. He’s right about what happened with that bill.
Most of them are just going to rubber-stamp what President Trump says. That’s why it was so important to get this meeting. And I hope he sees it not…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: The president, not as political theater, but as real people who are facing a crisis right now…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: … whether it’s in the cities, the suburbs, or the rural areas of America.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You sit on the Judiciary Committee, so I want to ask you about what’s happening right now.
Earlier this month, the U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia, Erik Siebert, resigned after failing to bring a case against New York Attorney General Letitia James. We just spoke about her with Robert Costa.
Monday, Lindsey Halligan was sworn in as the interim U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia. She has never prosecuted a case before. Three days into this new job, she moved forward with the indictment of former FBI Director James Comey on two counts.
Have you spoken to your fellow Republicans on the Judiciary Committee? Do they have concerns about what’s happening in Virginia?
SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: Well, I plan on doing that this week.
And what I see this, as a former prosecutor myself, this is weaponizing the Justice Department, basically taking a career prosecutor who was recommended by the Republican governor of the state of Virginia, clearly has Republican roots, who made a decision based on the evidence over a period of months, made a decision.
Then he’s pushed out, forced out, so that the president can install his own aide into the job. When I questioned Attorney General Bondi during her confirmation hearing, she assured me that politics would not play a role, that they would make independent decisions.
That is not what this is. This is a vengeance prosecution. It is not about the law.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You also worked on investigating January 6, 2021, and the attack of the United States Capitol.
FBI Director Kash Patel yesterday said publicly 274 FBI agents were – quote – “thrown into crowd control” on that day, against FBI standards. President Trump also said publicly that FBI agents acted as agitators who were secretly placed against all rules, regulations, protocols and standards into the crowd prior to and during the attack.
This contradicts what the inspector general said in a published report that said there was no evidence of undercover employees in the crowd and that there were hundreds of special agents and employees who came in after the Capitol Hill police asked for them.
This is now newly in focus because the president put the focus there. What was the role of the FBI that day?
SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: I chaired the investigation of the security problems along a bipartisan investigation with Senator Peters and then- Senator Blunt and Senator Portman. This went on. We had a number of open hearings.
And we made major, major recommendations for changes at the Capitol. And nowhere was it found that the FBI was acting as agitators. In fact, they were called in when there was such a delay in bringing in the military to insist – to assist in what was essentially an insurrection, where over 100 police officers were injured or maimed because of this criminal activity at the Capitol.
So, I just find it appalling that the president would say that the FBI was somehow part of this. Kash Patel did clarify that, in fact, they were brought in after the fact. But they were brought in because we needed help. Senators, Republicans and Democrats were calling the military leaders. They were calling the attorney general. They were asking for help, because that help was not coming to the Capitol.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR: And everyone has seen those facts.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator, thank you for your insight there. We will be watching what happens here, as the president tweeted both of those things and in reference to former Director Chris Wray.
We will be right back with a lot more Face the Nation. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’re joined now by Ohio Republican Congressman Mike Turner.
Good morning.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER (R-Ohio): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Good to have you here in person.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Thanks. Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to talk to you about Ukraine, which you just returned from.
But, before I do that, let’s button up where we left the conversation with Senator Klobuchar. FBI Director Chris Wray was twice spoken about in public statements by the president yesterday, and he said he has some explaining to do. He seemed to be connecting it to the FBI and January 6.
Are you at all concerned by the former director’s actions?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, I do think there – with this new information, there’s going to have to be some explaining as to, what is this new information and how does this relate to January 6?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Specifically, the number of the agents, the 274?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Yes, this does seem to be significantly different than what anyone has heard before, and how does this relate to the circumstances of what occurred there?
Certainly, Kash Patel, as he’s bringing this forward, this is going to be information that I think does relate. It really does go to everyone’s confidence of what we currently know about that day. There’s been a number of investigations, a number of people who’ve looked at this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: This certainly is concerning, and I think it is a matter…
MARGARET BRENNAN: What – but what part is concerning? Because that inspector general report said months ago that there were several hundred FBI agents who responded after the Capitol Police asked them to be there.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: But it’s the issue of, what was their role? What did they do?
That aspect, I think, certainly – as we look at this information, as the FBI looks at the information, is it the same? Is it the same information that has been looked at before or is it different? And that certainly bears a review, and that, I think, will occur.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So when the president says Chris Wray has some explaining to do, how do you interpret that?
Because the inspector general report is public. Kash Patel said those individuals were there. It’s not standard to send them, but it was disclosed they were there after the Capitol…
(CROSSTALK)
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, as the information comes forward – I mean, obviously, the current FBI director and the FBI is going to have to come forward with the information. That information will be reviewed.
And then, ultimately, the FBI is going to have to and I think that the prior director will have to explain how this information relates to what we have looked at before. And it’s either going to be the same and prove that it is as everyone believed the circumstances were before, or it’s going to be different.
And, at that point, we’re going to have to look at, how does it relate to what we believe we knew and how does it relate to what we now see?
MARGARET BRENNAN: But just to be…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: But we don’t know, because I have no information and I think no one else has any additional information, besides what the news reports are, and we will have to review what that information is.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But just to be very clear, because it is such a dangerous information environment in so many ways, you are not in any way suggesting that the FBI was secretly agitating, which is what the president said, the attack on January 6?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: I’m not suggesting anything.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: And I don’t think you are either.
I think what we’re both suggesting is that this currently is in news reports. And those news reports certainly bear a review of the information that’s going to come forward. And that information is either going to tell us that it’s the same information that has been seen before…
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: … or it’s going to be new information. And if it’s new information, that’s going to need to be reviewed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re going to take a break, and I want to talk about your trip to Ukraine on the other side of it. But I have to do this right now.
So, stay with us, all of you.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back with Congressman Mike Turner, Democratic Senator Tim Kaine and former White House special counsel to Trump Ty Cobb.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to “FACE THE NATION.”
We return now to our conversation with Ohio Republican Congressman Mike Turner.
Congressman, we were showing video there earlier of the overnight attack Russia carried out against Ukraine. You were just there in Kyiv. I’m sure you welcomed what the president said this week when he said he now has changed his mind and he does believe Ukraine could win this war and get its territory back from Russia. But he also added, he wishes everyone well when he made that statement. So, is he telling us that the United States is walking away from Ukraine and leaving it up to them, or is he signaling that the United States is going to help Ukraine win that territory back?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER (R-OH): Well, we definitely need to help. And this is part of, you know, the dirty secret that really where the United States really needs to step it up. And it’s part of the meeting that he had with the president of the E.U. commission.
You know, the United States is providing aid to Ukraine. But at the same time, the west, and E.U. and the United States is subsidizing Russia and its production machine because, you know, we’re buying from China and India that is buying energy from Russia. And the E.U. is buying energy from Russia.
So, we need to place sanctions on Russia so that we’re not funding their economy, which is funding their ability to attack and kill Ukraine. So, we’re funding both sides of this.
Unfortunately, there are those in Congress that want to stop supporting Ukraine’s ability to defend themselves. Well, that will just result in more attacks from Russia as we saw last night against Ukraine. That’s not going to get us to peace. The only way to get us to peace, and – and Trump’s vision of peace, is to impact their ability for production, to stop subsidizing Russia’s economy and their ability for production and killing Ukrainians, and that’s to adopt Lindsey Graham and Brian Fitzpatrick’s bill that would impose sanctions. Give the president the ability to impact Russia’s ability to wage this war and get us to peace.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But Speaker Johnson has said before that he would put that bill to a vote. He just hasn’t. And he said, oh, I need the – the president to green light it. That’s not true. We has a veto-proof majority. We’ve had Senator Graham on this program a million times telling us this is set to go, just give us the green light.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did Speaker Johnson respond to your request to move?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: No. And he’s – and the momentum is here. We need to do this now. The president doesn’t need to give us the green light. He’s not a red light. The last time that –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, leadership is not acting on it.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: And we – and we’re coming back. And we need to do so. And we need to do so now. The last time we put on the floor the – the bill that would have stopped funding Ukraine, there were 3,000 – 300 members voted for it. And if we put the bill on the floor to stop – to put sanctions on Russia, stop funding their economy, it would be similar. Over 300 members would vote for it.
The only way to peace is to put sanctions on Russia, continue our support for Ukraine, which is what we’re doing, what the president’s going to be doing, and – and bring this war to an end. Support Trump’s vision of peace, put sanctions on Russia, stop funding their – their war economy.
Now what I saw in Ukraine, which is what’s really incredible, is that they are winning modern warfare. What they’re doing with their anti-drone technology, I mean, they are really the tech bros of the future. They are implementing on the front line anti-drone air defense technology that is winning this war. With our help and assistance, which they’re going to continue to need for the long-range systems that Russia is bringing in and that are attacking Kyiv with. But with their anti-drone technology that no one else has, that they are implementing, they are winning this war. We need to be on the side of – of – that war of the future that they’re winning and support Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And I’ve heard military officials explain this to – to me, that this is like a really interesting test case to learn the lessons that Ukraine is – is illustrating for the world. However, in – in the immediate term, will the president lift restrictions on Ukraine’s ability to use long-range weapons to actually attack Russia?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, and he really needs to do so. Because what’s happening with that pressure that’s on the front lines –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because he has the old Biden policy.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Right. Well, he does. And that’s what he needs to release. Because with the pressure on the front line, and the fact that Ukraine has developed anti-drone technology, where they’re taking down Russian drones, they’re using their own drones to attack Russia. But Russia has long-range weapons that they’re attacking that front line.
Ukraine needs to have the ability to use long-range weapons to push Russia back. And when they’re able to do that, they will get their territory back. If they are able to do that, they will win this war. And if we put sanctions on Russia impacting their ability to produce their war machine and production, they will be able to win this modern warfare and we’ll be on the right side of what – this is not old time war. This is modern war. And we’re being (ph) on the right side of Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’ve just got to persuade President Trump to do that, that change in policy.
When we were in France last week, speaking to President Macron, I asked him about those incursions into European air space. Some would say by Russian drones or Russian jets. Others have said they still need to investigate. We’ve seen drones or jets into Poland, Estonia, Romania, Norway, possibly Denmark. What should the United States be doing to push back on those provocations?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: You know, what’s interesting about this is – what we’ve also said that is that, you know, Russia, once they get through Ukraine, would be testing and going – continue into Europe. But what they’re seeing –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Isn’t that what they’re doing?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: But what they’re seeing now, because they’re having this – this success of Ukraine, they’re going over Ukraine. They’re now going into Poland and Romania and they’re seeing that Poland and Romania don’t have the advanced technology that Ukraine does. And instead of going through Ukraine, they’re going over Ukraine. Since – since this is modern warfare and Ukraine’s winning it, they’re seeing that the old war is actually old Europe.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mike Turner, thank you for sharing some of your insights which you learned on the ground in Ukraine.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’ll be right back in a moment. So, stay us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to Virginia Democratic Senator Tim Kaine, who joins us this morning from Richmond.
Good morning to you, Senator.
SENATOR TIM KAINE (D-VA): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have, what, 140,000 federal civilian workers in your state. One of the highest numbers in the nation. How concerned are you that you will see mass layoffs if we go into this shutdown that the White House says they are preparing for?
SENATOR TIM KAINE: Well, and I think your reporter Robert Costa said they’re even welcoming it. We are really worried about it, Margaret. When – – when Ted Cruz forced a shutdown of the government in October 2013, it hurt Virginia pretty bad. And when Donald Trump forced a shutdown of the government in late 2018, early 2019, it hurt Virginia pretty bad. And this one would be the same.
The only thing about the president’s threat to fire more people is, he’s already doing it. And instead of threatening, he should just be meeting to negotiate.
We came near shutdown deadlines during the Biden administration, but we never shut government down because the president would sit down with congressional leaders of both parties and would find a path forward. And that’s what we’ve been asking for since the Democrats put an alternate plan on the table on September 18th, just sit down and talk with us. And, finally, he has agreed to do that tomorrow. But if you’re reporting is to be believed, he’s sort of going into it setting – reducing expectations improperly. He should be doing what presidents do and saying we’re going to find a deal to keep the government of the greatest nation on earth open.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But is it enough of a deal to say, take the short-term seven-week funding deal and we’ll continue to talk about these health care subsidies that Democrats say they are so concerned about? I mean is it really worth the risk?
SENATOR TIM KAINE: Here’s – here’s my thought about this, Margaret. This – – my personal view. We’ve got to solve this health care issue, and Republicans are saying the same thing. Mike Johnson has said it. Senator Cornyn has said it. Senator Hawley has said it. Senator Murkowski has said it. We’re asking to fix a problem that even Republicans want to fix.
I don’t think we have to have every detail pinned down with all the i’s dotted and t’s crossed in order to do a short-term extension. But I do want to see that Republicans are saying, you’re right, we can fix this, and here’s the path to finding a fix.
And the second thing we need, which is so reasonable, we’re just asking, if we do a deal, please don’t, Mr. President, sign the deal and then immediately the next day start – starting to take away funds, rescinding agreements that you just made yesterday. A deal should be a deal. And we should all agree that Americans should not see their health care suffer, their premiums spike, and people lose insurance and providers close.
We’ve already had providers in Virginia announce that they are closing their doors because of the bill that the Republicans passed in July. And this is happening all over the country. Let’s just do what’s right by our constituents and fix it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you another question specific to Virginia, and that is what is going on inside the judicial system. Back in August it was the U.S. attorney for the Western District of Virginia, Todd Gilbert, who suddenly resigned. Then, earlier this month, the U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia, Eric Siebert, resigned after failing to bring a case against New York’s Attorney General Letitia James.
What is going on here in the Virginia court system?
SENATOR TIM KAINE: Margaret, I – it’s pretty darn plain. The president nominated two U.S. attorneys in Virginia, both with Republican bona fides. Todd Gilbert, in the western district, had been the Republican speaker of our house of delegates. He resigned as a legislator to take the Trump appointment. President Trump’s team interviewed these candidates, approved the candidates, nominated the candidates, and then even appointed them into the interim position. But both were forced out because they said their integrity as prosecutors would not allow them to genuflect to Donald Trump.
In Todd Gilbert’s case they wanted to force him to demote a long time career member of the Western District of Virginia, who had served under multiple administrations and presidents. He refused to do so. And in Eric Siebert’s case, he refused to bring a criminal charge against a perceived Trump political opponent when there was no evidence to support the charge.
President Trump spending time going after enemies, trying to figure out a way to give $20 billion to a friend, the Argentine government, instead of dealing with the challenges we elected him to confront. Food prices are going up. Building supplies are going up. School supplies are going up. And energy costs are going up. Health care costs are going up. And Donald Trump seems to be focused on a retribution campaign.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR TIM KAINE: You got to focus, man. This is an important job. It’s time to focus.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, when it comes to those Virginia cases, have you talked to Siebert, have you talked to Gilbert to understand why they felt they had to resign?
SENATOR TIM KAINE: I have talked to each of them after the resignations were done. These were individuals – I knew both – I knew Todd Gilbert because of his legislative role and I knew Eric Siebert very well by reputation. And again, this was the prosecutor, Margaret, who, when the Biden administration transitioned to the Trump administration, the Trump administration DOJ put him in the role as an interim even before we recommended him, along with our Republican governor, Glenn Youngkin, as you mentioned.
So, after they had been fired, yes, I did call and say I’d like to understand why you were forced out. And they shared thoughts with me without getting into anything about particular cases or particular communication they’d had with Trump administration officials.
But I am convinced, and Virginians are convinced – I traveled around the state this week, people are talking about this. Both of these individuals had a backbone. They wouldn’t genuflect to Donald Trump and they wouldn’t bring baseless cases. And we shouldn’t see that in any district in this nation. And it’s sad that President Trump is more focused on retribution than serving his constituents.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, that eastern district did come forward with this indictment of former FBI Director James Comey. Yes, it was just a two-page indictment. No evidence presented publicly here. But it was convincing enough to 14 of 23 people sitting on a grand jury. Can you really say there’s no there there?
SENATOR TIM KAINE: A bare – a – well, a bare majority, as you know, Margaret, there’s 23 people on a grand jury. They need at least 12 votes to get an indictment. And, yes, they got their finger over the bar with 14. Although the 23 wouldn’t agree on one of the charges that the U.S. attorney was pushing. So, we will see what this case is about.
It is odd that the indictment has so few facts. And I found it very odd. I used to practice in this court. And when the attorney general put out a press statement after the indictment and said, we will follow the facts in this case. What? Prosecutors follow the facts before they indict.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR TIM KAINE: They don’t indict and then say, well, let’s see what the facts are. I think she even revealed that this is a weak case, which everyone in her office was telling her it was a weak case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You – on your Armed Services role I want to quickly ask you. You have said you are supportive of the creation of a Palestinian state.
SENATOR TIM KAINE: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we saw at the U.N. this past week a large number of members just simply walked out when Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke. It was a statement. Tomorrow, he’s going to be at the White House. Ahead of that meeting, President Trump said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I’m not allowing Israel to annex the West Bank. There’s been enough. It’s time to stop now. OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s a strong statement. Do you know how the United States should enforce that? How do you force Israel to step back from annexation?
SENATOR TIM KAINE: Well, I was very heartened that the president said that. And – and you’re right, I support what the United States voted for in the U.N. in 1947, a state of Israel and a state of Palestine. One of those promises has been met. One hasn’t. And we need to be on a path for a Palestinian state that’s demilitarized where Hamas plays no role in its governance. And until we find that path forward, we’re going to have continued cycles of violence that are bad for Israelis, bad for Palestinians, bad for the region.
So, I hope the president, who by all accounts has a strong relationship with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, makes plain that we are – we are against annexation and this 21-point proposal that the president has on the table, which is pretty similar to the New York dialogue being led by the French and the Saudis, they’re – they’re different efforts, but they’re trying to reach the same point, a future state for Israel and Palestine where both can live in peace and creating stability in the region instead of the cycles of violence.
So, I hope the president leans into that at the meeting tomorrow.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR TIM KAINE: I was heartened by his comment. It would be a big mistake for the prime minister, Netanahu, to look at all of the nations that have been allies saying you need to change course and for him to just pull his head in the shell and turn inward and continue to isolate Israel rather than move forward toward peace and more stability in the region.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Kaine, thank you for your insights today.
We’ll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’re joined now by Ty Cobb. He served as White House special counsel for just under a year during the first Trump administration, helping to coordinate the response to Robert Mueller’s probe of Russian influence on the 2016 election.
Good morning to you.
TY COBB (Former White House Special Counsel to the President): Good morning, Margaret. Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we saw this action against former FBI Director James Comey this past week and he was indicted on two charges specific to his September 2020 testimony to Congress about Russian election meddling in 2016. The so-called crossfire hurricane.
In your view, from what you’ve heard of this case, do you think it has enough substance to actually head to trial?
TY COBB: I don’t really. You know, as you and Senator Kaine discussed briefly moments ago, that the grand jury rejected one of the counts, the top count actually in the indictment, approved two, but by a very slim margin, 14 out of 23, in a process where there’s no defense attorney in the room and the standard is merely probable cause. You know, the next courtroom that this will be assessed in, if it gets to trial, requires unanimity from 12 people, and – and there will be a vigorous defense. I don’t see any way in the world that, you know, Comey would be convicted. And I think there’s a good chance because of, you know, the wholly unconstitutional authoritarian way that this was done that the case may get tossed out well before trial.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Wholly unconstitutional and authoritarian. That’s – that’s quite a description. You used to work for President Trump. What makes you now characterize his actions that way?
TY COBB: That’s true. I used to work – well, I used to work at the White House as – as a lawyer, you know, interacting with the Justice Department in the Mueller investigation and other matters. And I was not Trump’s personal lawyer.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
TY COBB: So, my role was really, you know, as a – as a government employee and not personal to the – to the president. He did have personal lawyers.
But, you know, at the time, you know, I was trying to perform the duties that were assigned to me. In this – in this circumstance, you know, I’m eight years removed from that. I don’t – I don’t have any allegiances or reasons to, you know, say anything other than balls and strikes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
TY COBB: And, you know, former Attorney General Jackson, Justice Jackson, Nuremberg prosecutor, himself highlighted in 1940 that the most important thing at the Justice Department, when he was attorney general, was that people not target individuals. That they merely pursue crimes. Griffin Bell, you know, years later, 1978, you know, said essentially the same thing, emphasized how, you know, political – politics and, you know, favor have no business at the Justice Department.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
TY COBB: It’s all about even handedness. And I think we talked about the misrepresentations that Attorney General Bondi made about how she would proceed evenhandedly and, you know, she’s wholly abandoned that now and is now merely doing the president’s bidding when he says prosecute my enemies now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. Well, “The New York Times” is reporting that half a dozen U.S. attorneys’ offices have been ordered to draft plans to investigate a group funded by George Soros, who is a Democratic donor. You look at that, you look at the lists of names of others who the president has said he specifically wants to be prosecuted or investigated. I’ll read a few of them to you. Two former Trump officials, Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor. He also said he wants a federal investigation into former special counsel Jack Smith. The DOJ fired the 35 lawyers who were involved in the January 6th and classified documents cases. The Justice Department is now going after Fulton County D.A. Fani Willis’ travel records. We have quite an exhaustive list here. What is the pattern you see?
TY COBB: Well, I think if you go to 30,000 feet, what you see is a lot of moving parts, but simple themes. The simple themes are rewriting history. Trump wants to rewrite history so that, you know, the next generation may not know that he incited a violent insurrection, refused to peacefully transfer the power of the presidency after losing an election, stole classified documents and showed them to, you know, friends and guests at Mar-a-Lago. You know, and that – that he was a criminal. I mean, he’s a convicted felon. All – all anybody involved in those events that offended him, they’re in – they’re in real danger.
So, you have the rewriting of history stuff. You know, the U.S. attorney that he appointed his personal lawyer, Lindsey Halligan, you know, her – her role previously in the administration was, you know, trying to eliminate the theory that, you know, America, you know, had slaves at the Smithsonian. She was there to, you know, whitewash the Smithsonian.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
TY COBB: And paint America as – paint American as something that – that it isn’t. I mean America needs to learn from the mistakes and lessons that we’ve had. And one of the biggest mistakes that – that America ever had was re-electing President Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, a number of Republican lawmakers are declining to speak out and are leaving the door open that these cases are legitimate. Do you think that the judicial system can resist what you are saying here as just simply politically motivated pressure?
TY COBB: I think that’s an excellent question. I think, you know, the founders, when they – when they drafted the Constitution, Article One is to Congress and Congress has the greatest powers under the Constitution. Spending power, war power, impeachment. Congress is really there to check the presidency.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
TY COBB: Congress has been neutered by the cowardice of the Republicans. Mike Johnson won’t even seat – recently elected Representative Grijalva because he doesn’t want her to tip the balance on the – on the Epstein vote.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
TY COBB: So, Congress is totally in the tank and the judiciary is doing – doing its best.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re going – I’m going to have to put you off. I’m sorry.
TY COBB: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m going to have to cut you off, I’m sorry, because we’re out of time there.
TY COBB: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Ty Cobb, thank you for your time.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us today. Thank you for watching. For “FACE THE NATION,” I’m Margaret Brennan.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
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