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The moment Debra Kamin saw a Sky News article about Return to the Land, a remote community in the Ozark Mountains of Arkansas, she knew she had to see it for herself. That’s because the compound, which currently houses around 40 men, women and children, only accepts residents who are white and heterosexual.
Ms. Kamin, a real estate reporter for The New York Times who focuses on inequity in housing, was struck by the brazen discrimination.
“I wanted to look them in the eye,” she said. “I wanted to understand them. Because I don’t think of this as a fringe group. I think of this as a symptom of a movement that’s happening in our country that’s imperative for people to understand.”
This month, Ms. Kamin traveled to Memphis, where she met Whitten Sabbatini, a photographer; they then drove two hours to Ravenden, Ark., in the northeastern part of the state. They spent half a day on the compound gathering information for an article that was published last week. In an interview with Times Insider, Ms. Kamin talked about her visit, which she called “surreal.” This interview has been condensed and edited.
How did you first approach the community founders?
I tracked down the phone number of Eric Orwoll, a founder of Return to the Land, and I left him a voice mail that I hoped would pique his interest. He called me back, and I gave him a pitch. I told him: “Our goal at The Times is to always portray people as fairly and as accurately as possible. I want to come there and get to know you so I can tell your story to our readers, and so they can understand who you are and what you’re doing, because I don’t think you’re going away anytime soon.” That was appealing to him.
What kind of access were you granted?
They did not show us everything. About half the compound was off-limits to us. I was introduced to the other co-founder, Peter Csere. I met two women who live there. I met several children. Most importantly, I watched them all interact with one another, and I got to see the work that they’re doing on this land.
How were you treated by those you met?
They were kind and respectful. Good reporting is about connecting with people on a human level. When you do good reporting, you get the person you’re speaking with to not only see you as a reporter, but as another person. It’s knowing how to guide the conversation so that they want to keep talking to you.
My goal was not to think of them only as white supremacists, because that would also blind me from seeing the full story. They have views I do not agree with. But my job as a reporter is to withhold judgment and to get to know them in the most unbiased way that I can, and then to take all that information back home and write the best story that I can.
What else can you tell us about your time at the compound?
At one point, one of the leaders who is a trained musician started playing the piano for me. I also play the piano, so we played a duet together, which was kind of a wild moment. But it was really helpful for him to see me as a person and not just as someone with a notebook. I played with his children for a bit and bonded with them. All of these things were very helpful in making them want to welcome me and in getting them to answer my questions fully and openly.
Another thing I want to share: Eric has an office that we sat in for a little bit. He is a big adherent of Plato and philosophy. He has all these books on his shelves. I asked him if we could take some photographs. He reached over and took one of the books off the shelf and turned it around to hide its spine. I looked at him and asked, “Is that ‘Mein Kampf’?” He simply responded: “I didn’t even really like it.”
I’m Jewish. I didn’t share that part of myself. I was sitting across from someone who was likely not aware of my background. I was uneasy thinking of how he would respond if he was. He has a book written by Hitler that he was trying to hide while sharing his far-right extremist, racist views. The whole thing was surreal. But all of my discomfort, concern and fear, I just dissociated and put it all aside.
Do you worry that your reporting will close off access for future articles?
It might. But it doesn’t matter. That’s not something we can control. We have to report this as fully, honestly and in as cleareyed a way as we possibly can. I’m very grateful we got this access now, even if we never get it again. I do hope that they will see the reporting for what it is, which is fair and unbiased, and continue to give us access as a result. But we can’t allow those concerns to color how we report on them. We simply have to stick to the mission.
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