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When democracy and civil society are all you’ve known, they are easy to take for granted. However, for some autocracy is not just a word but a way of life.
Host Garry Kasparov is joined by Oleksandra Matviichuk. She leads the Center for Civil Liberties in Ukraine, which won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2022, and has become a leading figure in documenting the occupation of Russia’s war in Ukraine. Having both been born in unfree states, Garry and Oleksandra discuss Russia’s failure to resist Putin’s takeover and Ukraine’s success in fighting back.
The following is a transcript of the episode:
[Music]
Garry Kasparov: It’s easy to take democracy and civil society for granted when it’s all you have known. Americans are aware of the repression and brutality in faraway lands. But for most, autocracy is a word: not a threat, not a way of life.
If you are born in an unfree state—like my guest, Oleksandra Matviichuk, and I were—it is a different story. We were both born in the Союз Советских Социалистических Республик, known to you as the U.S.S.R., Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
But our paths diverged when the Soviet Union collapsed and disintegrated. My nation became Russia again. And after less than a decade of fragile democracy, it was dragged back into authoritarian darkness by dictator Vladimir Putin. In contrast, my guest’s newly independent homeland of Ukraine, despite predictable struggles, has had a long series of those most wonderful things: real and unpredictable elections.
Russia’s failure to resist Putin’s mafia takeover and Ukraine’s success in fighting back against it contain many useful lessons for Americans and anyone else who risks taking their rights and freedoms for granted.
[Music]
Kasparov: Tragically, Ukraine’s fight has not ended. Russia’s aggressive war against its European neighbor will fail. Of that, I am sure. And it’ll be Ukraine’s robust society, not just its military, that will see that happen.
From The Atlantic, this is Autocracy in America. I’m Garry Kasparov.
[Music out]
Kasparov: My guest is Oleksandra Matviichuk. She’s a lawyer by training and has emerged as a leading figure in documenting the atrocities of Russia’s war in Ukraine. She leads the Center for Civil Liberties, which won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2022. As you’ll hear, she speaks with a strength and optimism, but also a pain that comes with the deep understanding of the horror of this war and what could come after.
[Music]
Kasparov: Hello, Oleksandra. Thank you very much for joining our program.
Oleksandra Matviichuk: Thank you very much.
Kasparov: Let’s jump right in. You are based in Kyiv. Tell us what things have been like there recently.
Matviichuk: Just three hours ago I had a webinar devoted to the problem of illegally detained civilians. And during this webinar, the air attacks started, and I had to excuse myself and go to a bomb shelter. And two ballistic rockets hit not Kyiv, but Odessa. And just three hours ago, one person were killed and eight person were injured. So this is daily life now in Ukraine.
The war—it’s a lottery. When we go to bed, we have no idea whether or not we will get up the next morning because you never know what next residential building will be hit. It’s difficult to live in such conditions, but we try to adapt to this new normality. Because Russians came to steal everything from us: our children, our country, our future, our freedom, our democratic choice, our families, our joy, our love—and we decided not to provide them this chance.
Kasparov: Okay, you just talked very passionately about your country, your culture, everything that is so dear to you and to millions and millions of your compatriots. So for many in America or Europe, still, you know, there’s kind of confusion. Tell them: What is Ukraine? Why Ukraine is not Russia? That’s a very simple question, because it is a massive propaganda that is, of course, being channeled through various media entities directly or indirectly sponsored by Russia. Simply, you know: Lay down the history of Ukraine and up to this moment, communicating back to people who would like to know the truth, why all these assumptions are false. It’s a false narrative, because Ukraine is Ukraine. And Ukraine today—as I believe, being Russian—is defending the front line of our civilization.
Matviichuk: Let me tell you my personal story. I was born in a Russian-speaking family. So my first language was Russian, and I started to study Ukrainian language in the school. And then when I start to learn history, I suddenly understood that I was born not in a Russian-speaking family. I was born in forcibly Russified-speaking family, because the native language of my father was Ukrainian.
But my father, he decided to become a doctor. And all education in Soviet Ukraine, in schools and universities, was only in Russian. Ukrainian language was banned. And even more, if you want to make a career, if you want to be treated as a normal person, not secondary, you have to speak Russian. And my father, he’s not a fighter. He just wants to be normal. He don’t want to be secondary. So he switched from Ukrainian to Russian language, and then it’s become his daily practice.
And this is how this policy of colonization works. That your language, your culture—it’s treated something secondary. And if you still manifest your identity, you will never make a career in such a country. And when I understood it, being a child in a school, I decided to switch to Ukrainian because I understood that my native language was stolen from me. That it’s a huge historical injustice. So it’s a real existential fight. Because we speak about genocide, and I’m a lawyer. I know that genocide is a crime of crimes. It’s very difficult to prove it. From the common sense, from human logic, if you want partially or completely to destroy some concrete national group, to exterminate some nation, there is no necessity for you to do it physically, to kill all representatives. You can just forcibly change their identity, and entire nation will disappear. And that is what’s going on with other nations, during Russian empire times and during Soviet empire times. And that is why now the majority of people in Belarus speak Russian. Their language, their identity: also stolen from them.
You ask me why we survived after all this pressure during centuries. And I think that it is because of freedom. It is because of our values. Scientists told that freedom is value of self-determination, but I think that in our case, freedom is a survival value. Because if we will not be so consistent in our fight for freedom and for independence, if our cultural elite weren’t so brave to manifest a Ukrainian identity—even being persecuted, jailed, killed—we will never have survived. So freedom, for us, it’s not just a self-determination value. Freedom, for us, is a value which helps us to survive.
Kasparov: I always feel quite uncomfortable by just, you know, asking these questions. Because as a Russian, I also feel even just a small portion of guilt just for belonging to this imperial mentality. Though I have quite a long history of opposing Putin and his criminal regime. You were born in the Soviet Union. You went to school just at a time where the Soviet Union was about to collapse and Ukraine independence was proclaimed. So when do you think that the split between Ukraine and Russia, this rift, became visible and the further tragic events became inevitable? At what point do you think that the gap has become irreconcilable?
Matviichuk: 2014. We have a mass protest, which was called the Revolution of Dignity. And millions of people stood up their voice and came to the streets, and they peacefully demonstrated against pro-Russian corrupt authoritarian governments. They just wanted to build a country where the rights of everybody are protected: Government is accountable, judiciary is independent, and police do not beat students who are peacefully demonstrating. And this vision of the future united people from all parts of the country. And this is very essential. We have different religions; we have different past and personal experience; but all of us want the same future for us and for our children. We want to see our future democratic, peaceful, and independent.
Kasparov: Okay. I think now it’s very important that we analyze, with your help, the reasons for this war. What is the core of this war, of Putin’s aggression? What is at stake? Is it territories, or is it much bigger?
Matviichuk: For sure, it’s much bigger. We have to look to the roots of this war. This war started not in February 2022. This war started in February 2014, when Ukraine obtained a chance for a democratic transition after the collapse of the pro-Russian authoritarian regime due to the Revolution of Dignity. And in order to stop us in this way, Putin occupied Crimea and the system regions of Ukraine in 2014: 11 years ago. And three years ago, he extended this war to the large-scale invasion. Because Putin is not afraid of NATO. Putin is afraid of the idea of freedom, and that is why this is not just a war between two states, Russia and Ukraine. This is a war between two systems—authoritarianism and democracy—and that is why China helps Russia to avoid sanctions. Iran provided Russia with rockets and drones. North Korea sent to Russia their soldiers and troops. Because all these regimes, they have something in common. They have the same idea what a human being is. They see people as an object to be controlled. They denied them and their rights and freedoms.
But let’s be honest. Putin organized a large-scale invasion not because he wants to occupy just more part of Ukrainian land. Putin started this war for something bigger. He wants to occupy and destroy the whole country, and move further. He sees Ukraine as a bridge to Europe. His logic is historical. He dreams about his legacy. He wants to be seen in world history as a person who managed to restore the Soviet Empire. Ukraine is not just a goal; Ukraine is a tool. An empire has a center but has no borders. Empire always tries to expand, to invade other countries, to kill people there, to destroy their identity, to colonize these territories. And move further.
Kasparov: Agreed. But tell us. You have been very effective while tirelessly revealing the crimes of Putin’s occupying forces. Do you have a sense that people who you are addressing recognize that Vladimir Putin is an existential threat to this global order?
Matviichuk: Frankly speaking, I know that people even don’t know that Putin is the biggest child kidnapper in the world. People don’t know that the International Criminal Court issued official arrest warrant against President Putin and his child commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova for the crime against children—because they abducted tens of thousands Ukrainian children and forcibly moved them to Russia. So he’s literally the biggest child kidnapper in the world. And unfortunately, people don’t know even such detail.
Let me tell you one story. This is a story of children writer Volodymyr Vakulenko. He wrote beautiful stories for Ukrainian children in Ukrainian language, and an entire generation of Ukrainian children were brought up on his Daddy’s Book. During Russian occupation of Kharkiv region, he disappeared. I know his family personally. His family hoped, to the last, that he was alive—like thousands and thousands of other Ukrainian civilians are illegally kept in Russian captivity.
But when the Ukrainian army released the Kharkiv region, we found mass graves in the forest. In these mass graves, we found dead bodies of civilians: men, women, and children. Some dead bodies have hands tied under their backs. Some of the dead bodies have a visible sign of horrible tortures. And in the grave, under the number 319, we found the dead body of this children’s writer. You can ask me why Russians killed children’s writer who wrote beautiful story for Ukrainian children in Ukrainian language? But the answer is very simple: because they could. Because Russian occupation is not just changing one state flag to another. It’s not just when Ukrainian children have to go to occupied school and start their every morning with a forcible singing of Russian national anthem. Russian occupation—it’s first disappearances. It’s torture, it’s rape, denial of your identity, forcible adoption of your own children, filtration camps, and mass graves. This is Russian occupation.
And I know that some politicians abroad, they have this wishful thinking: that The war is so horrible. That Okay, occupation is not good, but at least it will stop the war and decrease human suffering. But believe me, I document war crimes in occupied territories for 11 years. Occupation doesn’t stop human suffering. Occupation just makes human suffering invisible.
Kasparov: You said, again, that the war, the real war, started 11 years ago in February 2014. And many in the West still don’t get it. For instance, the current [U.S.] administration. Donald Trump, he always brags that, Oh, there was no war when I was in the office—you know, referring to his first term. So please, again, I apologize for pushing to say it was a war, because people got killed. Russia was already absorbing some of Ukraine’s territories back in 2016, ’17, ’18, ’19, ’20, preparing for a mass-scale invasion.
Matviichuk: When I interviewed people who survived Russian captivity, they told me that Russians see their future like this: First, we’ll occupy Ukraine. Then, together with you, we’ll go to conquer in other countries. And the process of forcible mobilization of Ukrainian citizens to Russian army, all these years, is still going on in occupied territories. We have, in occupied territories, 1,600,000 Ukrainian children. Russia introduced the forcible militarization of these 1,600,000 Ukrainian children. For example, their parents forced to give their children to so-called “sports and reeducation” camps. In these camps, Ukrainian children learn how to use weapons. They march, they use military uniforms, they line up. And third: Russians install in the mind of Ukrainian children unquestionable obedience. So they try to convince children that they have no will, that freedom does not exist for them at all. And why I emphasize on this: It’s not just problem of Ukraine, that Russia is preparing a new generation of Putin soldiers from these 1,600,000 Ukrainian children. It’s not just human-rights violations. It’s not just international crimes. It’s a real global threat—to security of people in different countries.
Kasparov: We’ll be right back.
[Break]
Kasparov: Now let’s move from Europe to the United States. That’s the main backer of Ukraine. Undoubtedly, America provided some crucial support for Ukraine to survive and just to resist and keep fighting successfully against Russia. Again, going back to 2014, just tell us about the view of Ukrainians of Americans’ engagement—or you may say disengagement—at certain periods over these 11 years. Let’s start with 2014, with the Obama administration’s decision to basically accept it. So what did people think about America and America’s role and its gradual change over these 11 years?
Matviichuk: It’s a good question, because I think that the main political decision is made from the short-term perspective. But this decision will have a long-term perspective.
Kasparov: Long-term consequences?
Matviichuk: Exactly. This means that, in 2014, the international community failed the Putin test. The civilized world closed their eyes to this. The sanctions were so weak. It was ridiculous.
Kasparov: It was lip service. We know. It was lip service. No measures were taken to cut the dependence of Europe from Russian oil and gas.
Matviichuk: Germany continued to build a gas pipeline with Russia. They shake Putin’s hand. They do business as usual. So they failed the test. And that is why the long-term consequences of this political decision in 2014 now is large-scale war. There is a good Russian proverb, “Appetite grows during the lunch.” So when the West failed the test in 2014, Putin decided, Okay, I can move further. In 2022, when Russia started large-scale war, the United States and other international partners, they said, Let’s help Ukraine not to fail. And we start to receive first weapons to be able to defend ourselves, and first real sanctions against Russia, finally, were introduced in force.
And we are extremely grateful, especially for ordinary people in the United States who urged their government to help Ukraine. Because you help us to survive. I can speak now with you only because of your support. And thank you for this.
But this is also an explanation why Ukraine was waiting for more than two years. Why are we still waiting for a lot of weapons, which urgently is needed just to stop Russian army? Because there is a huge difference between two narratives: Let’s help Ukraine not to fail and Let’s help Ukraine to win. And this difference has practical meaning. We can measure this difference. All this, for years, in types of weapons, gravity of sanctions, and speed of decisions. Now the situation is completely changed. President Trump told that he wants to stop this Russian war of aggression against Ukraine, because he cares about people who die in this war. And this is a good intent. People in Ukraine want peace much more than anyone else. We just know that peace doesn’t come when country which was invaded stops fighting—because that’s not peace, that’s occupation. And occupation is just another form of the war.
So this means that if American leadership cares about people dying in this war, they also have to care about people dying in Russian prison in occupied territories. They also have to care about Ukrainian children who have been forcibly deported to Russia. They also have to care about people who are suffering daily in this gray zone. They have no tools, how to defend themselves. We speak about millions. They have to care about this. And I know that people in the United States support our struggle for freedom. We are very far, from a geographical point of view, but we are very close for the value point of view.
Kasparov: What is, in your opinion, why the free world didn’t want to see Putin’s open preparation for the full-scale invasion of Ukraine?
Matviichuk: Because they have another logic. I’m not naive. I don’t speak about just human-rights logic. I speak about pragmatic logic. They thought that it was irrational for Putin to start a large-scale war—because he will be in isolation. The war resulted in hundreds of thousands of human losses, also from Russian side, because it will decrease the potential of Russian economy. So they think it was irrational to start large-scale war, because they based their decision on a pragmatic basis. But once again, the Putin logic is historical. He don’t care about Russian people. He don’t care about economy. He care about how his name will be written in the world history. He cares about his legacy.
Kasparov: Okay. I guess he cares even about his power, but again, agreed. So it’s a different logic that they didn’t want to admit existed. Next: Biden administration. They tried to stop the war, but it failed because, again, they probably didn’t understand that Putin was determined to go in this war. And negotiations were, as always, treated by Putin as a sign of weakness. February 24th, 2022. Ukraine is under direct assault and the Biden administration expected Ukraine to collapse, so offers [Volodymyr] Zelensky to evacuate. You know, they heard in response, the historic phrase, you know, Churchill-like phrase: I don’t need the ride; I need ammunition. Ukraine survived, defeated Russians, in the battle of Kyiv. Next, the Biden administration sticks to a formula: We stand with Ukraine as long as it takes. Your reaction?
Matviichuk: Plus, to this formula, it was another formula, which I called non-escalation management. The West and United States, as well—they have some red lines they have drawn for themselves that if they will do this, Putin will become angry, and it will escalate the situation. And I think it’s a very wrong policy. Because it’s Russia who has to be afraid to cross red lines, not the West.
Kasparov: Now, we have Donald Trump back in the office. And, tell us: Did Ukrainian society have high expectations about Donald Trump’s return to the office?
Matviichuk: Frankly speaking, yes. I was surprised, but I saw the social survey. And people in Ukraine—they provide a much higher level of trust to President Donald Trump than, for example, people from the countries of European Union. I think it’s because President Trump openly articulated that he will stop Putin, and Ukrainians expect that he will demonstrate strengths to stop Putin.
Kasparov: But again, so far, we don’t see Donald Trump acting with the same strengths against Putin, or at least with the same vigor, with the same rage, as being expressed against many American traditional allies. But there’s always hope—hope, and I understand that people in Ukraine, they can’t afford to lose hope. But there’s a very important knowledge that comes from your tragic experience about the true nature of the war. And the simple question is: How does this war end? What are the scenarios? Is it realistic to think about a peace deal with Putin? Or, this war has only two outcomes—destruction of Ukraine or collapse of Putin regime?
Matviichuk: Let’s return to the near past, because we have two peace agreements with Russia before large-scale war started. We have this Minsk Accord and eight years of so-called ceasefire, which Russia violated almost daily, and people died almost daily. And it was no negative consequences for Russia for these violations. So people in Ukraine remember this experience, and that’s why we want sustainable peace. Putin will stop only when he will be stopped. The problem is that the only language which dictators understand—it’s a language of strength. They see all other attempt to negotiate as a sign of weakness. They can imitate the peace process. Why not? To decrease the sanctions and to prepare better. Because, how they use this eight years of peace agreement with Ukraine? They built a powerful military base in occupied Ukrainian territories. They prepare the army. They trained their army. They retreat, they regroup. They prepared the economy for the possible way of sanctions, and they start attack. So this is the logic.
But what is important? To demonstrate strengths. Which makes Putin understand that it’s impossible for him to achieve his goal, to destroy the whole Ukraine, and to go further and to attack other countries and forcibly restore Soviet Empire. If we will not demonstrate strengths, it means that he will just postpone this goal for several months, or for another period.
Kasparov: So you are telling us that Ukraine would continue fighting for justice: not just for herself, but for the free world? So you will stand firm at this frontier that separates now the free world and the world of tyranny? And the battle will go on—even if there are some pauses, temporary ceasefires—because the war between tyranny and freedom cannot end in a draw, as in the game of chess.
Matviichuk: I think that this war will end with strength. And strength—it’s not just military performance. We have also demonstrated the strength of spirit. Because we are fighting for something which has no limitation in national borders. It’s freedom. We are fighting for freedom in all senses, for a freedom to be independent country, not to have Russian side, and not to become Russian colony. For a freedom to preserve our Ukrainian identity, our Ukrainian language, our Ukrainian culture, and not to be forced to educate Ukrainian children as Russians. And for a freedom to have our democratic choice to build the country with the rights of everybody are protected. And we are paying the highest price just for this chance.
Kasparov: Yes. The price Ukraine has paid, and has been paying—it’s enormous. And that must be the ultimate wake-up call for the free world. This is the lesson. This is the most important historic lesson: that freedom has a price, and you have to be willing to pay this price. You don’t have to pay it just every day. But there will be pivotal moments in history where you have to show your readiness to pay and to make a sacrifice. And this is something that’s been forgotten in the free world, and being reminded—every day being reminded—by immense Ukrainians’ sacrifice, resilience, and devotion to the cause of freedom. So I can’t end this conversation with anything else but saying, Слава Україні. [“Glory to Ukraine.”]
Matviichuk: Героям слава. [“Glory to the heroes.”]
Kasparov: Oleksandra, thank you very much.
Matviichuk: Thank you very much.
[Music]
Kasparov: This episode of Autocracy in America was produced by Arlene Arevalo. Our editor is Dave Shaw. Original music and mix by Rob Smierciak. Fact-checking by Ena Alvarado. Special thanks to Polina Kasparova and Mig Greengard. Claudine Ebeid is the executive producer of Atlantic audio. Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
Next time on Autocracy in America:
Gary Marcus: The far right has so politicized the notion of truth that it is hard to get people to even talk about it. But I think that there will be a swing back in the pendulum of that someday. Whether that happens in the United States is a very complicated situation right now, but I think the world at large is not gonna be satisfied with the state of affairs where you can’t trust anything.
Kasparov: I’m Garry Kasparov. See you back here next week.
The post Ukraine’s Fight Is Far From Over appeared first on The Atlantic.
