‘Poker Face’ creator Rian Johnson on perfecting the murder mystery and why his next movie after ‘Knives Out’ isn’t ‘Star Wars’

When it comes to murder, Rian Johnson knows what elements make up the perfect crime.

The writer-director has spent the last six years immersed in the whodunit genre, surrounding Daniel Craig’s Southern dandy detective Benoit Blanc with a cast of quirky suspects in two “Knives Out” movies (a third is out this fall), and refining the procedural format for streaming with Peacock’s “Poker Face” starring Natasha Lyonne.

“The murder mystery genre has served me well,” Johnson told Business Insider with a giggle in the days leading up to the season two premiere of “Poker Face” on Thursday.

The series, which stars Lyonne as Charlie Cale, a mystery-solving former casino worker on the run from the mob, uses the case-of-the-week format to feature all manner of zany scenarios acted out by a star-studded cast of guest stars. This season, Charlie must do everything from work as an extra on a B-movie set at a mortuary run by Giancarlo Esposito to find the killer among quadruplets all played by Cynthia Erivo.

The series’ familiar procedural format helps keep the show grounded, so Johnson can encourage the “Poker Face” writers to come up with outlandish scenarios for each episode.

“To me, having a show like this, it would be sad if you just cranked out a version of the same thing every time,” Johnson said. “It’s an engine to drive batshit crazy ideas that you might not get made otherwise. That, to me, is the fun part.”

Johnson knows the value in keeping things creatively interesting. That’s why he plans to take a break from the whodunit genre and start a new project after his latest “Knives Out ” installment “Wake Up Dead Man” hits Netflix this fall.

“It’s a completely different thing,” Johnson told BI of his next idea. (And no, it’s not a return to “Star Wars.”) “It’s a little scary, but in a fun way.”

Below, Business Insider spoke with Johnson about turning crazy ideas into “Poker Face” episodes, casting actors via a group chat, and why he hopes “Wake Up Dead Man” gets played in as many movie theaters as possible — despite Netflix CEO Ted Sarandos’ calling movie theaters “outdated.”

Business Insider: Each “Poker Face” episode this season feels like a mini movie. While watching, I wondered if there’s an archivist on the show who has encyclopedic knowledge of everything that’s happened, simply just to make sure not to repeat a bit or the way someone was murdered.

Rian Johnson: Yeah, it’s me [laughs]. In terms of what we’ve done in the previous season, I mean, if you talk to someone who has done “Law and Order” where they are on their 89th season and 300 episodes, they would laugh at us. But we have some of the writers’ room assistants do research. So that is one element of it.

What does a proposed “Poker Face” story need for you to consider it for an episode?

We definitely have a blue sky day where people just pitch, “What about a baseball episode?” and others, and that’s really fun because you also get to know the writers in the room, because everyone is pitching their own pet ideas. And then the reality is you pick a horse at some point and say, “Okay, let’s develop this thing,” and then the real work happens, which is hashing out the show and the structure.

Charlie is not a cop; it’s not her job to do these things. By necessity, you have to find a way in for her with every episode. And that means you have to develop a relationship, you have to have an emotional investment. With “Poker Face,” it’s something that you actually really need to make the episode tick. So finding ways to do that every week without it feeling like it’s repeating itself, finding different relationship dynamics, finding different ways in — the connection Charlie has with the killer or the person killed — that ends up being one of the biggest challenges of the writing. 

A perfect example is the first episode of season two, which you directed. In it, Charlie meets Cynthia Erivo’s character while working at an apple orchard. Was that something not used in the last season?

No, the orchard setting was fresh. I think part of it came from we were shooting in New York, and we were like, “What’s around there? Oh, an apple orchard. That will be ideal!” But that’s also a fun element of it. It harkens back to the “Columbo” thing or more “Quantum Leap,” every episode zooming into a microcosm fishbowl of a world. Episode 1 came from the notion of all these false starts. We could have had a “Poker Face” episode set in a haunted house hayride or a parking garage, but those pesky gunmen keep chasing Charlie.

Are you personally involved in selecting the guest stars?

Yeah. The casting process for the main guest stars is a text thread with me, Natasha, Tony Tost, the showrunner, and our casting directors. Sometimes it’s just me and Natasha bouncing back and forth ideas of friends that we want to text. So it’s a very fun, personal, and chaotic process because we’re casting the show week to week. 

So it’s a lot of figuring out if schedules are going to fit.

But there’s also an element that’s also, “I was out the other night at dinner and I ran into so and so. Do you think they’d want to be in this episode that starts shooting on Monday?” There’s a bit of a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants element to it, which is fun and terrifying. It’s amazing to get to the end of the season after that process and look back and see the roster that we’ve gotten. 

Has an actor you’ve gone out to for the show ever declined because they’re holding out for a role in a “Knives Out” movie?

[Laughs] Not to my knowledge. If that has happened, they have not given that reason to me. But also being in one doesn’t preclude you from being in the other. And these are very different processes casting both. We cast as we’re shooting with “Poker Face.” And we started shooting that halfway into the “Wake Up Dead Man” shoot. 

So someone you cast in a “Knives Out” movie could show up in a “Poker Face” episode, and vice versa?

Absolutely. Most of the people in this season I would cast in a heartbeat in a “Knives Out” movie. 

After “Wake Up Dead Man,” have you thought about what you’ll do next?

Actually, I have a whole movie in my head that I just have to write, which makes it sound easy, but it won’t be. I’m hoping to take the summer and dig into that. It is not a Benoit Blanc movie, it’s not a murder mystery, it’s a very different genre. It’s an original. So, I’m hoping to dive into that.

So, not taking a trip back to a galaxy far, far away?

Not for this next one. 

Recently, Netflix co-CEO Ted Sarandos spoke at the Time100 Summit and said this of the state of theatrical releases: “Folks grew up thinking, ‘I want to make movies on a gigantic screen, and have strangers watch them, and play in the theater for two months, and people cry, and sold-out shows.’ It just doesn’t happen anymore. It’s an outdated concept.” Do you agree with him?

Obviously I don’t, because I love movies. I love going to see movies. But, also, I have a feeling talking to Ted, it would be a different thing than one quote taken and kind of tossed at me in this context. So I don’t want to phrase this as I’m having a proxy discussion with Ted right here.

But, I will say, disconnected from that, I think theatrical is not going anywhere. With the success of Ryan [Coogler]’s movie, “Sinners,” and the “Minecraft” movie, I think we’ve seen if you put a movie people want to see in the theaters, they are going to show up for it. That experience of being in a full house and having that experience is so important. It’s something that I love and I want more of in the world. 

I’m sure you’ve had discussions with Ted yourself about theatrical within the Netflix bubble. Daniel Craig has gone on record saying it saddened him how “Glass Onion” was released in so few theaters. Do you hope “Wake Up Dead Man” will be shown on more screens?

We’ll see. We’re going to push for all we can get. I want this in as many theaters for as long as possible. I love Ted, I love working with Netflix. They have been absolutely wonderful partners. We’re going to push for everything we can get in terms of theatrical with it because I want as many people as possible to see it in that form. 

This interview has been condensed and edited for clarity.

The first three episodes of “Poker Face” are now streaming on Peacock, with new episodes dropping weekly on Thursdays.

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