What’s going on with men?
There’s a growing body of evidence that men are falling behind. You can see it in education, in the labor market, and in the data on drug overdoses and deaths by suicide.
The fact is, we have an alarming number of lonely, alienated, and disaffected young men in this country. And whatever the reasons for that, this is something we have to deal with as a society.
Although the “masculinity” discourse has been raging for a while, most of it is unhelpful at best and harmful at worst. One of the exceptions to this has been Scott Galloway, a New York University professor and the host of The Prof G Pod, which is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Galloway is working on a book about masculinity, and he’s been a consistently insightful commentator on this front.
Among the many headwinds in this conversation is the reality that men are not the only ones struggling and we’re all accustomed to seeing men in positions of power and privilege, so there isn’t a ton of sympathy out there. But something is clearly happening and there are good reasons why we should all care about it. As Galloway puts it, “the most dangerous person in the world is a man that is broken and alone,” and society appears to be producing far too many of them.
I invited Galloway on The Gray Area to talk about the state of men and where the discourse has gone sideways. An excerpt of our conversation is below and, as always, there’s much more in the full podcast, so listen and follow The Gray Area on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pandora, or wherever you find podcasts. New episodes drop every Monday.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Sean Illing
When someone wants to know what you mean when you say that men are struggling, how do you sum it up?
Scott Galloway
Well, it’s just data. Men are four times as likely to kill themselves. If you walk into a morgue and you see five people who’ve died by suicide, four of them are men.
Men are not attaching to school, they’re not attaching to relationships, they’re not attaching to work. One in three men under the age of 30 has a girlfriend, while two in three women under the age of 30 have a boyfriend. You think, well, that’s mathematically impossible. It’s not, because women are dating older because they want more economically and emotionally viable men.
And the gag reflex you get from progressives and women when you start talking about struggling young men is understandable because no one was talking about it. And then some very unproductive voices entered into that void and this “manosphere” emerged where it was more what I would refer to as thinly veiled misogyny, where it starts off good, it starts off with “take control of your life, be more action-oriented, be physically fit,” and then it starts to go to these really ugly places — treating women as property, showing them who’s boss. And so the voices that entered this discussion initially were really unproductive voices.
The conversations are becoming much more productive because, one, the data continues to get worse, and two, the conversation is now being led or inspired by a demographic that has more credibility, and that is mothers. You see a lot of mothers who consider themselves feminists saying, “There’s just no getting around it. I have three kids: two daughters, one son. One daughter at Penn, one daughter in PR in Chicago. And my son is in the basement vaping and playing video games.” And the data is just overwhelming.
We have to recognize that empathy is not a zero-sum game. Civil rights didn’t hurt white people; gay marriage didn’t hurt heterosexual marriage. And while acknowledging that women still face a lot of challenges, to have empathy for the very real and increasing struggles young men are facing, we can walk and chew gum at the same time.
Sean Illing
Why do you think it’s so hard to accept this idea that empathy doesn’t have to be a zero-sum game?
Scott Galloway
I think a lot of it is our fault. And when I say “our” fault, I mean progressives.
There’s just not a lot of empathy for a group that historically has had advantages and are naturally more likely and prone to be oppressors than the oppressed. But in a society that’s dramatically changing, where men don’t have the same economic role they used to or the same economic opportunities, there are some second-order effects we need to talk about.
We have to have an honest conversation around mating. Socioeconomically, men mate horizontally and down, and women mate horizontally and up. Three-quarters of women say economic viability is key to a mate, while only a quarter of men — now I think it’s a third — say it’s key to a mate.
How many times have we heard, “I know all of these great women who are high character, attractive, have their act together, but they can’t find a man”? Well, actually they can, they just can’t find a man they want to date. What you have is more and more reasons, including political bifurcation, where young people aren’t connecting, falling in love and mating, and forming households. And we have declining birth rates. If it wasn’t for immigration, we’d be in decline. And I think it leads to a lot of second-order effects around loneliness and depression and anxiety.
When men don’t have the prospect of a romantic relationship, they come off the rails. They’re less likely to be employed, they’re more likely to engage in misogynistic content, and some men, without the prospect of a romantic relationship, become shitty citizens.
What does that mean for society? Because the thing that the most violent, unstable societies have in common is a disproportionate number of young men who feel as if they have nothing to lose because they have no economic or romantic opportunities.
Sean Illing
This is personal for me, like it is for millions of people. I have a 5-year-old son and I don’t want to see him screwed up. I don’t want to see him undone by his own resentments. And I don’t judge these men, even though I can see how much destruction they’re causing, because I can see myself in them. I can see myself tumbling down the same rabbit hole when I was younger. I was pretty lost. I was caught up with drugs. I was close to falling right over the cliff.
But I had a family member who pulled me back and probably saved my life. It was one of those “get your shit together” moments, and soon after that I was in the military and the whole trajectory of my life changed.
Scott Galloway
What you just said is really powerful and it moves to solutions. And I’m trying to be better about proposing solutions.
I think mandatory national service would benefit America, young people, and especially men. It doesn’t necessarily need to be military service, it can be senior care, it can be planting trees, whatever it might be, helping kids in low-income neighborhoods. But I think saying to all young people, “You have to spend 12 or 24 months serving something bigger than yourself with people from different income groups, different ethnic groups, different sexual orientations,” recognizing that America is worth investing in. I think that’s one idea.
But look, I have a couple questions for you if you don’t mind. You said you suffered from addiction and then you went into the service. What was your addiction? And what branch of the armed services did you serve in?
Sean Illing
I wouldn’t say that I had an addiction problem, but I was using drugs, selling drugs, and generally spiraling out of control. So I joined the Air Force, did my time, got out, and went to school.
Scott Galloway
But you had that moment with your family member and it sounds like that was a turning point in your life. Is that accurate?
Sean Illing
Yeah, it was an older male cousin, someone I respected. He dragged me out of my apartment one night and shook me out of my stupor. That was the fork in the road for me.
Scott Galloway
But here’s what you had. You had a man in your life who had an irrational passion for your well-being and was willing to have a very uncomfortable, no-upside conversation other than hoping it was going to impact your life. And that’s what’s really missing with a lot of these young men. It’s hard for your mom to push you up against a car and physically intimidate you and scare you straight. Moms can provide other things, but young men need men.
And so what you had was a man in your life that cared about you, and cared so much that he was willing to have a very uncomfortable conversation. That’s almost all downside for him other than wanting to help you because he cared about you. That emotion is what’s in short supply. That person who has the strength and the willingness to find someone, to go over to that guy’s apartment, and tell him to get his shit together and do it out of love and concern. That is what we need.
We don’t need more fucking AI. We don’t need the S&P and the Dow to hit more highs; we need more men who have the relationships and the strength and the will to go have those conversations with other young men.
Sean Illing
I’m not here to tell anyone to have children or start a family, but do you think we’d have better, healthier, more productive men if more of us became fathers?
Scott Galloway
Some people just aren’t ready for kids. They’re not economically secure. They’re not emotionally ready. I had kids later in life. I didn’t have my first child until I was 42. My life was about more: I want more money; I want more fame; I want more recognition; I want to party with cooler people; I want to date more women. It was always more.
And the only time I’ve ever felt sated and thought, “This was enough,” are the moments with my boys. Let’s be honest, kids can be awful. It’s a lot of stress, but last night I’m watching the Liverpool-Man City game and my kids, 17 and 14, came in and threw their legs over mine, and the dogs came in, and I’m like, “Okay, this is enough. I can’t imagine anything more than this.”
Like you said, it’s almost relaxing. When I became a parent, all of a sudden the weekends were predictable. You know what you’re doing. You’re taking your kid to soccer practice and you’re going to some lame-ass birthday party on Sunday where you gather with all the other dads and just roll your eyes and say, “Jesus, how did we end up here?” But it’s relaxing. It’s like, “Okay, I got something else that’s more important than me all the fucking time.”
But once I had a kid, shit just got real. I got very focused. And I also get tremendous reward at night when I know my kids are warm and safe and well taken care of and going to good schools and I’m raising them with a competent partner. That makes me feel very strong. It gives me a sense of gratification. That’s the only time in my life I’ve ever felt whole, really whole. It’s like, “Okay, I get it. I’m here for a reason. I’m doing something.”
I’m remiss to tell people that the answer is to have kids, but what I can say is that I was never fully satisfied until I had kids. And I think we need more public policy that puts more money into the pockets of young people so they can afford to have kids.
Sean Illing
Lots of parents listen to this show. Any advice for them?
Scott Galloway
I think it’s such an individual thing. I’ve read most parenting books, and the thing they all have in common is they all contradict each other. There’s a wonderful podcaster, Ryan Holiday, who talks about stoicism and the myth of “quality time.” People say, “Well, I work all the time, but I have quality time with my kids.” There’s no such thing as quality time. The biggest moments, the most important moments with my kids, have been unexpected.
I’m driving them to school, I’m not looking them in the eye, and they say, “Dad, there’s a girl I like at school. What do you think?” You pray for those moments as a dad. I think my kids have asked me for advice maybe three times in their life, and they happen when they’re least expected.
The other thing I think you can do as a man is try to be as loving and supportive of your partner as possible. I think they see that. I think they see, “This is how I should treat women.” I think they see, “Wow, Dad really loves Mom and is thinking about her a lot. And I’m going to be that way when I’m a man.” Some of my faults when it comes to women have been, quite frankly, because my model for how to treat women was my father, who was married and divorced four times. But one of the best things you can do is be a visibly loving and supportive partner such that your kids notice.
Listen to the rest of the conversation and be sure to follow The Gray Area on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pandora, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
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