Whatever the result of this election, Democrats will be in a moment of transformation afterward. For nearly a decade, the party’s energies have been devoted to defeating Donald Trump. That common goal caused most Democrats to rally around Kamala Harris as soon as Joe Biden stepped aside. But their united front has masked real fissures in the party, and at the intersection of many of them sits John Fetterman.
Fetterman, Pennsylvania’s junior Democratic senator, gained early political fame as the towering and tattooed mayor of a working-class town, Braddock, Pa., and then became lieutenant governor of the state in 2019. Three years later, he defeated the Trump-endorsed celebrity doctor Mehmet Oz in a tight Senate race, despite suffering a stroke just months before the election.
But Fetterman’s time in the Senate has been bumpy. On the personal front, his stroke caused him difficulties with auditory processing — which you might notice a bit in our conversation. He uses an iPad and transcription software to help with his listening comprehension. He has also been very public about seeking inpatient treatment for depression early in his term.
And on the political front, his position in the party has become complicated. As an early advocate of the $15 minimum wage and criminal-justice reform, he was seen as a rising national figure and progressive champion with blue-collar street cred. But over the past two years, he has irritated both wings of his party. He was one of President Biden’s staunchest defenders, arguing for him to stay in the race when Democratic leaders were working to get him out. At the same time, he has been one of the most vocal supporters of Israel’s war in the Gaza Strip, which has pitted him against many progressives, some of whom now feel betrayed by him. (“I’m not a progressive,” he told NBC News late last year.) We talked about all of this and also the dynamics of the presidential election in his crucial state, where he says Trump is stronger than ever.
You’ve gotten a lot of attention for some of your positions since joining the Senate. Why do you no longer define yourself as a progressive? Well, the label leaved me. I didn’t leave it. And what was originally progressive eight years ago have been co-opted by the mainstream. And [progressives] continued to adopt really extreme kinds of views. And that’s why I was like, Hey, I’m just a Democrat. And then there was a lot of, Is that going to be the next Manchin or Sinema or anything? No. That’s ridiculous. I’m not leaving my party. I just happen to have reasonable views.
You said just now that progressives have adopted extreme positions, which you don’t agree with anymore. What would you say those are? Like defund the police, those kinds of things. That was a huge gift to the Republicans. And now, just some of these protesting right now. They’re openly being supportive of Hamas, or they’re now calling for the infantada [intifada] and these kinds of extreme absurd things. And they are supporting the kinds of regimes that live and impose the kind of values that are antithetical to the progressive kinds of way that they would live.
I want to talk about your positions on Israel, but first I want to stick with the idea of where you sit in the party. What do you say to progressives who funded your campaigns initially and supported you and now say that they feel burned by you? Well, gosh, that wasn’t loaded. It’s like, I don’t know why they decided to support me. And if they can’t follow me because I’m very fully supportive of the police, or that I’m fully supportive about Israel, and now you choose not to vote for me, that’s a choice that you have. And I would remind anyone, my seat is the only reason why it’s mathematically possible that we could even retain the majority in this cycle because we were the only ones that flipped in that cycle.
You were born and raised in Pennsylvania. Well, yes. Reading — the same hospital as Taylor Swift.
Wow. When did you decide to become a politician? I don’t consider myself a politician.
Is that true? I’m not trying to avoid using the label. I just think I’m an advocate for certain issues or perspectives or things. And that just happens to be the job that you’re in. It wasn’t a path. I don’t feel differently, behave differently. I don’t dress differently. I still live in Braddock. I’m a family guy. I remain a family guy. I haven’t really changed as a person.
It’s interesting that you said you don’t see yourself as a politician. What does a politician seem like to you? That it’s a track. Everybody’s constantly looking for the next job, and it’s incredibly cynical and transactional and, now, dysfunctional. I’ve been disappointed on the reality of that part of it. And it’s just also astonishing. I can’t understand why there’s people that are willing to spend tens of millions of their own money to try to hold that office. ’Cause then you can get there and be like, Hmm, look at the glamour: I’m sitting in a 500-square-feet apartment, and I’m on Grubhub and watching bad TV on Netflix or whatever. I like to ask all of my colleagues, Hey, is there some kind of secret society or like a social life or something glamorous? Even [Mitt] Romney, I mean, he’s incredibly wealthy, and he has a nice house, but I read that he sits on his nice chair and watches Netflix and eats salmon from his friend, and actually puts ketchup on it. So I haven’t met that one person that’s having that quintessential glamorous life. It’s been elusive for me, but it’s not one that would even appeal to me. I think people all think life is like “The West Wing” or something, where it’s snappy dialogue. But a lot of it comes down to just really bad performance art.
One of the things that has been very distinctive about you: You dress differently. You use language differently. Is that important to you? Not changing your demeanor to fit into this idea of this politician that you seem to reject? It would be exhausting to be anything other than that. And let’s be practical. I dress like a bum because it’s terrible to try to find clothes. I can’t find a suit. I truly can’t afford custom, tailored suits, so it’s just practical. And most normal people in Pennsylvania dress like that. And definitely in Western Pennsylvania, people wear shorts through the year.
Your legs never get cold? Well, yeah. But again, a lot of that comes back to practical: It’s just easier to wear shorts. I’m not making a statement.
I want to understand a little bit about how you’ve been navigating some of the currents in the Democratic Party. After the Biden-Trump debate, at a moment when other Democrats were turning on Biden for his cognitive decline, you went up against them in private and in public, and you tweeted that you weren’t going to join the “Democratic vultures.” Why did you feel so strongly at the time that the party should have stood behind the president? I actually didn’t see that debate. I was flying back from Israel, so I just started seeing some messages about that. But I really thought what Joe Biden has done for our nation was remarkable. And I lived through my own personal, that kind of a crucible of having hundreds of millions of dollars just destroying you, tearing you apart. But he held every line throughout all of that. I have to respect the strength there, and it may not be traditional kinds of strength, but it’s a quiet dignity kind of strength. He’s been an amazing president. And I’m not saying that as a partisan; I think objectively. To throw away a man and a 50-year career on a debate — and I always believe that he had a path, and it is going to be the blue wall. And here we are now, the blue wall remains to be the quickest way to just put Trump out.
It sounds as if you still perhaps regret the fact that Joe Biden is not the candidate. No, no, no. I don’t regret that. Harris has run a magnificent campaign. Things couldn’t have possibly gone any better, truly, truly. But what I’ve been saying then is like, I’d like to remind America that this is the only living person that’s beat Trump. And that means a lot.
You’ve said that Trump has a special connection with the people of Pennsylvania. One hundred percent.
Why? What is it that you see that he appeals to in your state? There’s a difference between not understanding, but also acknowledging that it exists. And anybody spends time driving around, and you can see the intensity. It’s astonishing. I was doing an event in Indiana County. Very, very red. And there was a superstore of Trump stuff, and it was a hundred feet long, and it was dozens of T-shirts and hats and bumper stickers and all kinds of, I mean, it’s like, Where does this all come from? It’s the kind of thing that has taken on its own life. And it’s like something very special exists there. And that doesn’t mean that I admire it. It’s just — it’s real. And now [Elon] Musk is joining him. I mean, to a lot of people, that’s Tony Stark. That’s the world’s richest guy. And he’s obviously, and undeniably, a brilliant guy, and he’s saying, Hey, that’s my guy for president. That’s going to really matter.
What do you think it does? I was truly alarmed about that when he started showing up. I mean, I’ve been there, not at that rally [in Pennsylvania], but when they were having the A.I. conference in Washington, he showed up at my building at Russell, and senators were like, [Fetterman’s voice gets very high] Ooh, ooh. They were like, I got to have two minutes, you know, please. So if senators are all like ooh! Then can you imagine what voters in Scranton or all across Pennsylvania — you know, in some sense, he’s a bigger star than Trump. Endorsements, they’re really not meaningful often, but this one is, I think. That has me concerned.
Pennsylvania is a place with a lot of union workers. Did it make you nervous that the Teamsters, for example, didn’t back a Democrat for president? Well, I think that’s finally making the grass roots more official. I’ll never forget, I live directly across the street from the steel mill, and we were doing an event there for [Hillary] Clinton, and I asked the union president, Hey, where are we on Trump? And he’s like, Yeah, probably half or 60 percent to two-thirds are voting for him. And I was like, Oh, that sucks. And then immediately there was a guy, he had a truck, and he had truck nuts on it. You know what truck nuts are?
Do I look as if I know what truck nuts are? It’s balls hung on the hitch of a truck, and he honked, and he was like, “Go Trump!” as he drove by, and it’s like, Hey, we’re in trouble and it’s undeniable. And some unions like [S.E.I.U.] and the government kinds of unions are still very, very Democratic. But those others, I think a lot of their membership, for a lot of people, Trump has that kind of a connection. That’s real. I witnessed that. And that’s why I’m concerned, and that’s why polls were inaccurate. And that’s why now I’m saying we got to fight for every last vote. It’s going to matter.
Do you think the polls are inaccurate this time? My polls in my race all said I was going to lose by one or two points, and I carried it by five points. And everybody thought that Clinton was going to just kill him. And of course, no. And people thought that in 2020 Biden was going to have like five points. And I’m like, No, this isn’t going to be a five-point race here. And it wasn’t, and it was incredibly close. And that same thing has been replicated. And the only thing that’s changed is he’s more popular. And you have Elon Musk standing right next to him. So I’m not sure what else has changed, except if anything, Trump has become more capable to withstand whatever, you know, whether it was the trials or the assassination or all of those things, but here he is.
You were outspoken during the 2020 election ballot counting and challenges. Election officials in Pennsylvania are warning now that the ballots could take days to count. Is that something you’re worried about? I’m very hopeful, and I do think that four years later, Philadelphia can now process those votes quickly, just like the same thing that Allegheny County has done. That huge, how many days of like wondering? That allows people to pound, pound, pound, you know, it’s rigged, it’s rigged, it’s rigged, for people to set the stage saying, bad things happen in Philadelphia. And it’s kind of a dog whistle, and that allows it to stir the [expletive] storm. So as long as, if Philadelphia’s able to do the kind of quick round, just like Allegheny, then I think you’ll have a lot less opportunity. And then also Trump was the sitting president at that time, and now he’s just a private citizen. So he has less ability to change the weather.
You mentioned Israel earlier. You’ve become one of the most pro-Israel Democrats in the Senate, where there has been some division within the party over what’s been happening in the Middle East. I would love to understand where your affinity with the state of Israel actually comes from. Can you explain its origin to me? I can’t say that there is an origin. I think it’s really about, that’s our ally. There’s a special relationship. And now if anyone that studies history realized that if you aren’t willing to stand and protect and support the Jewish community, that can end in incredibly terrible, awful ways. That’s what history has taught us. And now to anybody that doesn’t follow the history and not even aware of a lot of it: Err on the side of democracy. And that is the only democracy in the middle of that region. And I’ve had the chance to visit there. And that’s the kind of society that have those same kinds of values that we live and what we aspire to, especially, ironically, progressives, especially for women and members of the L.G.B.T.Q. communities. And that’s why, for me, it’s an easy choice.
In January, you were one of two Senate Democrats, the other was Joe Manchin, who didn’t sign on to support a measure endorsing the creation of a Palestinian state. This was part of a national-security package that included military aid to Israel. Can you explain that vote to me? I really used to believe that it should be a done deal for a two-state solution. That became part of the boilerplate for Democrats. And I assume that must be true. But the way things have evolved and where we’re at now — I mean, that would be ideal. I wish there could be peaceful two states. But the way things continue to evolve, I’m unsure if that’s even possible. I’m hopeful, but I’m not convinced that’s even viable. But what seems to be true and one of the enduring truths through this is that Israel continues to confront the kinds of singular evil that really manifest its way in Oct. 7. And they have the right to destroy Hamas, and now Hezbollah. You know, everybody, experts describe Hezbollah as like the ultimate badass, and Israel demolished them. And there’s no leadership left. And those are the kinds of hard things that needed to finally be confronted if they’re ever going to have some more enduring peace.
I think there are two things going on. One is the destruction of Hamas and Hezbollah, which are deemed terrorist organizations by the United States. And then there’s how you go about doing that and what is the cost. And people would look at the cost of how many people have been killed, civilians in Gaza, and say that the cost is too high. So I guess I’m struggling to understand a little bit of the nuance there from you. There isn’t any nuance.
You think that the price that’s been paid is fair? The price is terrible. It’s awful. That’s history. And that’s war. And Israel was forced to fight an enemy that are cowardly. They hide in tunnels. They hide in schools and in refugee camps. And they’re in those kinds of places and that forces them to reach them. They have to go through these civilians. That’s why they’re so evil. And that’s why that’s designed. The death and destruction and the misery was designed by Hamas. They understood that that’s going to happen. They don’t care. So we can both agree that the misery and the deaths in Gaza is terrible. And, you know, some people blame Israel. Well, I blame Hamas.
As you mentioned, you visited Israel for the first time in June. You met with Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who thanked you for your courage and your support of Israel. How do you see his leadership during this conflict? I thought it was really curious that Democrats felt like they needed politically to criticize Israel, but that would be difficult, so they found that, well, we’re going to just focus on Netanyahu. And you can think he’s a bad leader or a bad person or anything, but that happens to be the democratically [elected] leader of Israel. And he’s on our side. That’s our ally. And if you had to pick who you want to criticize, you should be criticizing Hamas. You should be calling out Iran, or you should be calling out Hezbollah. Certainly not, you know, our ally. I think it was incredibly unhelpful.
Are you concerned that Netanyahu is working to get Trump elected? I don’t believe that. I don’t. And if you think that might be, I don’t know why it’s helpful to say that publicly. I have to believe all of those college protesting and a lot of those other things, they would give Hamas opportunity to rejoice a lot of this division. But now there’s not much left of them anymore to celebrate.
I am curious, on that trip you made to Israel, if you went to the West Bank at all and met any Palestinians there? I didn’t. I didn’t go to the West [Bank]. I didn’t have unlimited time to see all the things that I wish I could. But I would love to go back.
I guess what I’m asking is if you’ve tried to understand the other side of this conflict. Well, I’ve talked to a lot of people. I would visit, and I would discuss [with] members of the Arab and Muslim [community] from Pennsylvania. I would have open dialogue. I entertain that. I would be happy to, to really understand the other side.
Last month, the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh chapters of the Council on American Islamic Relations issued a joint statement where they condemned you for saying that you loved Israel’s pager attacks targeting Hezbollah in Lebanon. I do. Absolutely.
They said, “When our elected officials start condoning the civilian loss of life, our collective moral compass is irreparably harmed.” It was targeted for members of Hezbollah. You know, no one uses beepers in that situation other than they were a member of Hezbollah.
There was a young child who was killed. Unfortunately, tragically, because Daddy was a member of Hezbollah. He brought that danger and evil into their home. And that’s what tragically resulted in that poor child’s death. And that’s what’s so terrible. She paid the price because her father was a terrorist for Hezbollah.
I want to ask you about one other place where you’ve been at odds with your party, which is on immigration. You understood that it was something that was going to affect people in your state and beyond. It’s a huge issue.
The party has now embraced enforcement at the border, but comprehensive immigration reform means legalization as well. What posture do you think the party should be adopting? How can the Democratic Party really deal with what has become a very, very divisive issue within it? It’s like, why is it controversial to say that we’re going to need a secure border? And when you started looking at the numbers that were showing up, and at some months that’s the population of Pittsburgh. And so, I mean, that’s a real issue. Trying to tell people, well, don’t believe your eyes, it’s going to be OK, it’s all working out. It’s not. And I’m the most pro-immigration guy there is. But that has to be compatible with a secure border, and I will never listen to anyone’s other side until you can explain, like, how? How do we take care of them? Where did those resources come from? And where do they go? Nobody could provide a serious answer to that.
Do you think if the Democratic ticket loses this election, it will be off the back of issues like immigration? I don’t. I just describe that as “the choice.” Two incredibly stark choices. It’s not about a certain policy. And it’s definitely not going to be about fracking or some of these obscure things. It’s about that stark choice, and it’s really much more — it’s visceral. And that’s why the people that are left that haven’t made up their decision are going, you know, what do I want for the next four years? And I do believe enough people will choose Harris. But it’s going to be much, much closer than anyone would want.
This interview has been edited and condensed from two conversations. Listen to and follow “The Interview” on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, iHeartRadio, Amazon Music or the New York Times Audio app.
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