When you meet her, Dr. Ann Burgess, 87, most resembles a real-life Betty Crocker. With her welcoming smile, inviting eyes, and signature pearls, most people would never guess her true profession. Then again, what is a psychiatric nurse and professor who has made a living working opposite some of America’s most-well known killers supposed to look like?
Betty Crocker, apparently.
As the subject of Hulu’s new three-part docuseries, Mastermind: To Think Like a Killer, Dr. Burgess will step into the spotlight for the first time in her six decades and counting career. It’s not that she shied away from attention—but rampant sexism at Quantico often meant that her male peers would get the accolades. And for the most part, the woman who is basically a blueprint for Olivia Benson didn’t mind. As long as serial killers were being apprehended, and the discussion around trauma victims was changing, then Dr. Burgess was fine staying in the background.
Still, her name is one you need to know. Her research with victims began when she co-founded one of the first hospital-based crisis counseling programs at Boston City Hospital. In 1975, she began lecturing at the FBI Academy and consulted with special agents to study serial killers, helping to develop the FBI’s modern playbook for profiling these heinous individuals. (Dr. Burgess was the inspiration for Anna Torv’s character, Dr. Wendy Carr, in Netflix’s Mindhunter.)
Dr. Burgess has questioned some of the nation’s most notorious killers, but she’s also helped change the way medical professionals and authorities work with sexual assault survivors and trauma patients. She’s had to be tough as nails while making those in her presence feel safe and protected. And in her ninth decade on Earth, she’s not slowing down, as her work continues in the study of elder abuse in nursing homes, cyberstalking, and Internet sex crimes, while also teaching a full course load on subjects such as victimology, forensic science, and forensic mental health.
Dr. Burgess travels all the time, but taking a vacation is pretty much out of the question. It’s not that she can’t—she just doesn’t want to. “It’s up to the person,” she says.
And now, the rest of America will see why. In Mastermind: To Think Like a Killer—directed by Abby Fuller, with executive producers including Dakota and Elle Fanning—viewers will learn her fascinating story as a wife, mom, and trailblazer whose crime-hunting innovations changed history.
Below, Dr. Burgess opens up about how she’s managed to keep her sanity in a profession that’s definitely not for everyone, why America is so obsessed with true crime, and her thoughts on some of today’s still-unsolved cases.
Glamour: Given the title of the docuseries, do you consider yourself a mastermind?
Dr. Ann Burgess: No, no. I let other people pick titles, so they thought that would be great. But in a way, the title pulls everything together.
I consider you a real-life Olivia Benson, even though you came way before the character. Is that an accurate description?
That’s very accurate and very perceptive of you. Yes.
Do you watch Law & Order: SVU?
If I have the time.
Why do you think America is so obsessed with true crime stories?
A couple of reasons. First, they’re educational. I think women especially watch it to see what kinds of situations happen and can they identify it or not. Usually with victimization, people don’t want to identify with it, right? You don’t want to be a victim, yet these are situations that can happen to anyone, especially females. But we are seeing that more and more males have been exposed to this and not fully appreciated for what they have had to go through. So, women hear it and can learn from it.
But then, there is a fascination with the offender and a need to understand why does he do this? In some cases, it’s misogynist thinking, which is kind of another lead of the myths that are out there about who gets targeted for an attack. I remember in the early days of lecturing, and to some degree today, that you have to go through the myths and where the misinformation is.
Another myth was that it was always the victim’s fault—something she did, something she said, something she was wearing…which is all wrong. It’s always in the offender. We don’t realize how clever the offenders are, how they’re surveilling their victim, how they target their victim, what makes somebody vulnerable. From a crime standpoint, that gives you something to try to be very aware and avoid certain kinds of situations.
Mariska Hargitay, who plays Olivia Benson on SVU, spoke recently about changing the way we talk about sexual assault survivors. They need to be celebrated the same way a cancer survivor is. Would you agree?
Right, and even just looking at the language is important. Were they a patient, were they a victim? The whole language of survivor comes in to say that they have moved on, so to speak. But I think that Mariska’s work in media has helped immensely to get the story out. I try to do it in terms of lecturing, in terms of teaching, and any way that we can, we’ve got to get it out.
Episode two of the docuseries focuses on serial killers from the ‘70s and ’80s and the frequent kidnappings in the ‘80s and ’90s. As a child of those decades, growing up I used to be terrified walking home after school because I knew these predators were out there. Now, you don’t hear as much about serial killers or kidnappers like we did growing up. Why is that?
I’d agree with you. I don’t hear as much on kidnapping, though we’re not hearing all the cases that are going on. But it was so impressive how aware you were of that as a youngster, so you could take some kind of action [if anything happened]. We say you’ve got to have your antenna up when you’re outside. Doesn’t mean it’s not going to happen to you inside, but I remember one offender saying, “Why did you open the door? I knocked on three doors before I got to yours. You’re the only one to open the door and didn’t your father ever tell you not to open your door to strangers?” That kind of a quick scenario is so traumatic for the victim because she feels like, “Oh my gosh, did I cause it?” Well, she opened the door, but it doesn’t matter. She was expecting people, and yet he’s able to traumatize her in a way. She’ll hear that in her head months afterwards.
As a result, we have to get that information out there in terms of how to deal with trauma symptoms so that they don’t cripple someone.
How have you not crippled from fear and the intensity of what you do? If my mother were doing this for a living, I might have moved out of the house out of fear someone was going to come after her.
I did have a situation when my youngest daughter came home and nobody could find her. We called the police, and then an hour later, she came sauntering up the road. She had gone home with a classmate, but it was terrifying…everything flashes in your head.
Those false alarms have probably happened to everybody in some way. But of course, all I think about is the Adam Walsh case where the mother was in a major store and had turned her back to look at a toy. Less than a couple of minutes later, he was gone. Those things are, as you say, very scary, but people need to be able to confront that.
How do you deal with the sheer terror of these crimes?
I deal with it because nursing has taught me how to deal with it. We have to be able to look at very distressing situations. I guess compartmentalizing is the best way to put it. You can’t take it home. You really can’t. I always had somebody I could talk to about cases. You have to debrief. You can’t just go through an interview [with a survivor or a killer] and forget it. You don’t.
In the docuseries, we see all the high profile cases that you’ve overseen or worked on, from the Menendez Brothers to Andrea Constand, who was one of the first women to come forward about Bill Cosby. Is there a high-profile case you didn’t work on that you would’ve liked to have been a part of?
Well, some of the ones that got solved later. Don’t forget, Dennis Rader, known as BTK, was out there for quite a while. The Green River Killer took a long time to solve. Those were the very interesting ones. Of course, the JonBenét Ramsey case is still not solved.
What are your thoughts on JonBenét’s case?
Well, John Douglas [the former FBI profiler] had gone out there after the family had called for him, and I agreed with John’s findings. He surveyed the crime scene and realized how far the family’s parents’ room was vis-a-vis JonBenét’s. There’s a big difference. John Douglas always felt it was a stranger [who killed JonBenét], meaning, it was not a family member. I would agree with that mainly, but I think it was someone that knew the area very well and knew the comings and goings, so that he was able…to be successful in terms of what he did. And I think it was one person responsible, but they still don’t have him.
The other one that’s been interesting recently, in terms of seeing how people reacted and do what I call “armchair profiling” is the University of Idaho students, because that went unsolved for a length of time. People had a chance to try to get into how they actually would profile that case, and that will be interesting to see how that turns out legally.
How do you mentally prepare before you sit down with a serial killer or a survivor? Do you get nervous going into these rooms?
No. I always take somebody with me. I do not do them alone. And I take my big German Shepherd dog. [Laughs] No, I don’t do that.
Do you have a German Shepherd dog, though?
Two of them.
Good for you. How would you say working in this field has shaped you as a human being?
Well, certainly, I have a greater appreciation for trauma. That is not anything I’d learned in nursing to any degree, and that was all new. I had not necessarily worked that much with any kind of offenders, so that I learned and got a greater appreciation for. And certainly in my field, my discipline of nursing, I really am proud of what we have done. We’re taught to be very observant. We’re taught to carefully look at evidence and things that many people wouldn’t ordinarily do. Certainly not police, certainly not even necessarily medical people, but nursing has done that. We’re with the patient 24 hours so we get a full view, rather than a quick capsule snapshot of interviewing someone.
From SVU to Grey’s Anatomy, the writers have gone to great lengths to explain the aftermath of sexual assault and the intricate process of what has to happen, from consent to rape kits. Would you agree that the work you’ve been doing for decades has allowed these shows to really depict trauma through a more informed lens?
I think the whole field of forensics has been very interesting. Now they’re getting into the hereditary aspect of it and doing some DNA, which results in fascinating work. The whole field has expanded, and it’s been very rewarding to see that.
You’ve worked with a lot of men who didn’t always give you the respect you deserved, as we see in the docuseries. Your work was cut out for you.
I agree.
Do you hope some of these men will have a new perspective on what you had to experience and how they treated you once they watch the series?
That will be interesting. I’m still in touch with several of them. One of the profilers runs his own cold case foundation—Greg Cooper, out of Utah, and he’s part of our Super Sleuth group. I’m sure he’s going to watch. Ken Lanning is another one that’s probably going to watch that we did a lot. He worked with children. That was his specialty, so it’ll be interesting to see. I hope they do.
You’re 87 years young and teaching a full course load. Do you want to keep working this much, or would you like to retire and do things like travel and garden?
Well, none of the things you just identified interest me. I’m not good at gardening.
Okay. Me neither. [Laughs] I just think it looks calming.
I’m not good at any of those things, so I’ll keep doing what I’m doing. I find it very rewarding. I love students, and I love nursing, so that’s what I’ll probably do until I say I’m not. Some people may need to take a vacation when they’re 50 or 60 or 70 or 80. It’s so individual.
What are some of the life lessons you like to share with anyone starting out in their career?
I think people have to keep the sense of humor. That’s something that tells me where your mental health is. People that are grumpy and don’t see anything positive are in for trouble as they get older. You can’t take yourself too seriously. Do what you enjoy. Be in a profession that you enjoy. I’m very grateful that certain agents [at Quantico] were wanting to improve their work, which is what I helped them do. So it was a win-win.
How do you wind down after a long day or week?
I watch TV. That’s about the only time I’ve had a chance…to see if the world’s still here. It’s pretty grim out there. Our country is not in a good place, let me put it that way.
What do you say to people who are really worried about the state of the world right now?
You’ve got to have a social network. We’ve learned this through research. You’ve got to have a social network that you can rely on, and have people you can go to that are going to help you, support you. That’s really it.
Finally, what do you want people to take away from Mastermind once they watch?
I want them to take away the importance of understanding trauma and victimization, that those are not things that are done because of the person. No, it’s not. You’ve got to plow through these myths and understand how serious trauma is and how much suffering people go through. Nurses are there to help.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Mastermind: To Think Like a Killer, premieres on Hulu on Thursday, July 11.
The post Dr. Ann Burgess, 87, Is the Real-Life Olivia Benson. This Is Her Story. appeared first on Glamour.
