Millions of Americans are expected to tune in on Sunday for the premiere of the 59th season of “60 Minutes.”
A new leadership team has been working to overhaul the program, and the back story has played out like a newsroom TV drama. There have been accusations of bias and political interference; firings and hirings and more firings; and questions about how the program would be remade at a consequential moment for journalism in the United States.
Ahead of the new season, Michael M. Grynbaum and Benjamin Mullin, the media reporters who have been covering the story for The Times, and their editor, Erin Mershon, discussed the challenges of covering their own industry (not to mention, former Times colleagues), the conspiracy theories they hear about news organizations and the complicated work of holding peers to account. This conversation has been edited and condensed.
It’s been a chaotic few months at CBS and “60 Minutes.” Can you give us the quick version of what went down, and who was involved?
MICHAEL M. GRYNBAUM: It’s a convoluted tale, but the drama at “60 Minutes” has captured the public imagination in a way few media-world stories have before it.
Shortly before he was elected to a second term, Donald J. Trump sued CBS, claiming “60 Minutes” had edited an interview to aid his opponent, Kamala Harris. CBS’s parent company, Paramount, was on the verge of being acquired by the tech scion David Ellison, whose father, Larry, is friendly with Trump. Although many lawyers deemed the lawsuit frivolous, Paramount paid $16 million to settle; shortly afterward, the Trump administration approved the deal.
David Ellison hired Bari Weiss, an opinion journalist and a skeptic of the mainstream media, as the editor in chief of CBS News. (Weiss formerly worked for Times Opinion; she quit in 2020 and criticized the paper.) Her hiring raised suspicions that Ellison wanted to shift CBS in a pro-Trump direction; he and Weiss insisted reporting would remain independent. Then, in December, Weiss held a “60 Minutes” segment about the Trump administration deporting migrants to a brutal prison in El Salvador, saying it needed work. The correspondent, Sharyn Alfonsi, called it politically motivated censorship; Weiss said she was exercising her editor’s prerogative. (The segment aired a few weeks later.)
In May, Weiss fired much of the program’s leadership team and let Alfonsi’s contract expire. Scott Pelley, a longtime correspondent, accused Weiss of “murdering” the show; CBS deemed this insubordination and fired him.
BEN MULLIN: Then there is Nick Bilton, Weiss’s pick as the new executive producer at “60 Minutes.” He is an unconventional choice for a position that traditionally was handed down to a protégé of the previous boss. Bilton, who previously worked for The Times and has produced documentaries, had no traditional broadcast news experience, and he’s bringing an outsider’s approach to the show — hidden cameras, some outside-the-box hires, redesigned graphics, new shot selections. In our interview this week, he described his lack of experience in broadcast television as an “asset” that would allow him to view the program through fresh eyes.
People may wonder about the editorial independence of the show. Based on your reporting, what may be at stake for the program and the industry at large?
BEN: All of the journalists at CBS News have to deal with the perceptions created by David Ellison’s appearances with the president, including a dinner Ellison hosted honoring the Trump White House this spring. When I asked Bilton if Trump was fair game for reporting on “60 Minutes,” Bilton said, “1,000 percent.” Everyone will be watching the show closely this season to see how they handle coverage of the president.
ERIN MERSHON: What’s going on at “60 Minutes” comes at an intense moment for media in the United States. Trump has moved aggressively to leverage his legal and regulatory power against the news media. In addition to CBS, he has sued ABC, The Wall Street Journal, the BBC, CNN and The New York Times over coverage. His Federal Communications Commission has taken steps threatening the broadcast licenses for ABC.
You reported that early into her tenure, Weiss asked the “60 Minutes” senior staff: Why does the country think you’re biased? Meanwhile, Pelley and Alfonsi have called into question her editorial decisions. Michael and Ben, how do you reckon with accusations of bias when those involved may have different perspectives on what it means or looks like? Can journalists cover journalists in an unbiased way?
MICHAEL: All of the clashing principals in this story line fiercely believe their perspective is the correct one. As a journalist, it’s my job to gather as much information as possible — the more detailed, the better — and present those facts to the reader in a fair-minded way. That doesn’t mean taking a “both sides” approach; I’m constantly assessing and stress-testing the info that flows my way, and considering the biases and motivations of the source. In that sense, media reporting is a lot like covering politics: There’s a lot of spin, and it’s our job to be cleareyed about that and help our readers cut through the noise.
BEN: Bias is subjective, but reporting isn’t. Journalism involves a series of steps that leads to fairness and accuracy. Did you reach out to the people you needed to? What did they say? Do their arguments have a basis in fact? If so, are they represented fairly? When you scrutinize a story, it’s often simple to discern the quality of the reporting that produced it.
Everyone comes to a job with some perspective — baggage, even. How does your history shape your approach?
MICHAEL: I see a lot of online conspiracy theories about the ways that news organizations operate. Some media outlets are motivated by advocacy and go out of their way to twist the news. But many of the mass media institutions I cover are staffed by hard-working professionals. That doesn’t mean they always get it right. As journalists, it’s important for us to hold our peers to account; trust is our most precious currency, and at a time when more and more Americans are skeptical of the news, it’s in every journalist’s interest to ensure that ambitious and bias-free reporting is protected.
BEN: When I’m worried I may have a story wrong, my solution is usually five or 10 additional phone calls. I call the person I’m writing about. I call the person who most disagrees with them. I find the world-renowned academic or expert who has written three books on the subject. I call a former executive. I try to reach the C.E.O. of the company. With enough reporting, I can accumulate a 360-degree view of the situation and discern the facts.
Weiss is a former Times Opinion journalist. Bilton is a former Times technology columnist. Ross Douthat recently left Times Opinion to join “60 Minutes.” How do we report on people who used to work here?
BEN: The Times attracts a lot of ambitious media people! But alumni status shouldn’t affect the way we cover people one way or the other. I’ve heard from a few readers of our coverage of Weiss who believe we’re harder on her because she’s an alum. The most important thing in these situations is disclosure of any past relationship to The Times.
MICHAEL: And to be very clear: We are not “harder” or “easier” on anyone because they previously worked at The Times, or, like Weiss, have criticized The Times in the past. She is the editor in chief of one of the country’s three major broadcast networks; that’s an inherently influential and newsworthy role, and we scrutinize her as we would any other leader of a major media institution.
You’re covering your peers and sometimes your competitors. Does knowing how newsrooms operate make things easier, harder or both?
BEN: The upside to covering this beat is that many media people understand what we do, and they’re willing to speak with us. Maybe because they want to be helpful. Maybe because they believe they can shape our stories. But more often than not, they engage. The downside is that it’s difficult to keep a secret in the media industry. If I know something, chances are one of my competitors knows it, too.
ERIN: Yes, Ben and Michael and I know how newsrooms operate, but plenty of our readers will not. We want to make sure the stories aren’t too “inside baseball” and that everyone can understand why they matter.
Are newsrooms leaky places in terms of finding people willing to talk to outside reporters?
MICHAEL: They’re extremely leaky. Reporters are professional gossips. And they also tend to complain every now and again.
Is there anything special about preparing to interview someone who is usually the one doing the interviewing?
BEN: Journalists know all of the traditional approaches to reporting, and they know all of the standard ways to thwart it, too. They also know the avenues for appeal — emailing your editor, trying to shape the story off the record, setting you up with other interviews with sympathetic voices.
It was humbling to sit down with the veteran “60 Minutes” correspondent Bill Whitaker at the “60” offices this week. When you go on the record with someone who’s interviewed heads of state, rock stars and Oscar winners, you have to be on your game.
MICHAEL: Ben, I’m reminded of a phrase I can’t repeat in a family newspaper, but the gist is: “You can’t bluff a bluffer.” Our fellow reporters know all the usual techniques. In many cases, I find it helpful to say upfront in an interview that I’m not writing stories on a “gotcha” basis. Intelligent journalists spend many hours turning over all sides of a story, and care deeply about getting it right.
Journalists are told not to become the story. But for you, journalism — and the institutions that are supposed to uphold it — is the story. How do you reckon with that?
BEN: There’s a funny scene in the movie “Page One: Inside The New York Times” where editors are trying to figure out whether something is “a real story or a media story.” The former media editor, Bruce Headlam, jokes that that doesn’t bode well for his team of reporters. “Stand down — we think it’s actually something happening.” He’s right — I think we should all have some humility about our own patch. That said, I do think who tells the stories, and what they say, really matters. There’s a reason conquering autocrats seize the TV networks quickly.
ERIN: Newsrooms and media companies are major centers of power, the same way that governments and huge financial institutions or multinational corporations are power centers. They deserve the same kind of scrutiny and accountability.
The post How We Cover ‘60 Minutes,’ Former Colleagues and Media Drama appeared first on New York Times.
