Bernie Sanders is not a fan of billionaires. His laser focus on economic inequality has made him one of the most influential politicians in the country. In this conversation with David Leonhardt, an editorial director in Times Opinion, Sanders explains why America’s next story must include economic justice for the country’s working class, and why progressives shouldn’t shun voters who disagree with them on social issues.
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The transcript has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
David Leonhardt: Senator Bernie Sanders started talking about income inequality nearly 40 years ago.
Archived clip of Bernie Sanders in 1988: In our nation today, we have extreme disparity between the rich and the poor, that elections are bought and sold by people who have huge sums of money.
He railed against oligarchs before Elon Musk made his first million.
Archived clip of Sanders in 1991: To a very great extent, the United States of America today is increasingly becoming an oligarchy.
Sanders started out as a political oddity. But his focus on inequality has made him one of the most influential politicians in America. I wanted to know where he thinks we’re headed next. So I asked him to join me for “America’s Next Story,” a Times Opinion series about the ideas that once held our country together, and those that might do so again.
Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you for being here.
Bernie Sanders: My pleasure.
Leonhardt: I have to start by going back to your days as mayor of Burlington, Vt., and thanking you for bringing minor league baseball to the city. I had family there, and I would visit every summer, and we would pick a week when the Vermont Reds were home, and we would go every night.
Sanders: That was a lot of fun. We worked hard on it, and they turned out to be a great team. A lot of the guys who played there ended up in the majors, so it was very good for the community.
Leonhardt: My family were supporters, and they got a big kick out of the fact that even though they were called the Reds, because of the Cincinnati Reds, the one socialist mayor in America had a baseball team called the Reds.
Sanders: Yes. We thought that was kind of fun.
Leonhardt: OK, let’s get into it. I want to go back to the pre-Trump era and think about the fact that a lot of Democrats during that time — I’m thinking about the Clintons and Obama — felt more positively toward the market economy than you did.
They were positive toward trade. They didn’t worry that much about corporate power. They didn’t pay that much attention to labor unions. And if I’m being totally honest, a lot of people outside of the Democratic Party, like New York Times columnists, had many of those same attitudes.
Sanders: Yes, I recall that. Vaguely, yes. Some of them actually weren’t supportive of my candidacy for president.
Leonhardt: That is fair. I assume you would agree that the consensus has shifted in your direction over the last decade or so?
Sanders: I think that’s fair to say.
Leonhardt: And I’m curious: Why do you think those other Democrats and progressives missed what you saw?
Sanders: In the 1970s — the early ’70s — some of the leaders in the Democratic Party had this brilliant idea. They said: Hey, Republicans are getting all of this money from the wealthy and the corporations. Why don’t we hitch a ride, as well? And they started doing that. Throughout the history of this country — certainly the modern history of this country, from F.D.R. to Truman to Kennedy, even — the Democratic Party was the party of the working class. Period. That’s all your working class. Most people were Democrats.
But from the ’70s on, for a variety of reasons — like the attraction of big money — the party began to pay more attention to the needs of the corporate world and the wealthy rather than working-class people. And I think, in my view, that has been a total disaster, not only politically, but for our country as a whole.
Leonhardt: I agree, certainly, that corporate money played a role within the party. But I also think a lot of people genuinely believed things like trade would help workers. When I think about —
Sanders: Hmm, no.
Leonhardt: You think it’s all about money?
Sanders: No. What I think is, if you talked to working-class people during that period, as I did, if you talked to the union movement during that period, as I did, you said: Guys, do you think it’s a great idea that we have a free-trade agreement with China? No worker in America thought that was a good idea. The corporate world thought it was a good idea. The Washington Post thought it was a great idea. I don’t know what The New York Times thought.
But every one of us who talked to unions, who talked to workers, understood that the result of that would be the collapse of manufacturing in America and the loss of millions of good-paying jobs. Because corporations understood: If I could pay people 30 cents an hour in China, why the hell am I going to pay a worker in America a living wage? We understood that.
Leonhardt: I think that’s fair. I guess I’m interested in why you think that members of the Democratic Party — not workers, but members — and other progressives ignored workers back then but have come more closely to listen to workers. I mean, if you look at the Biden administration’s policy, if you look at the way Senator Schumer talks about his own views shifting, I do think there’s been this meaningful shift in the Democratic Party toward your views. Not all the way.
Sanders: Well, what we will have to see is to what degree people are just seeing where the wind is blowing as to whether or not they mean it.
In my view, working-class Americans did not vote for Donald Trump because they wanted to see the top 1 percent get a trillion dollars in tax breaks. They did not want to see 15 million people, including many of them, being thrown off the health care they had or their health care premiums double, etc. They voted for Trump because he said: I am going to do something. The system is broken. I’m going to do something.
What did the Democrats say? Well, in 13 years, if you’re making $40,000, $48,000, we may be able to help your kid get to college. But if you’re making a penny more, we can’t quite do that. The system is OK — we’re going to nibble around the edges. Trump smashed the system. Of course, everything he’s doing is disastrous. Democrats? Eh, system is OK — let’s nibble around the edges.
Democrats lost the election. All right? They abdicated. They came up with no alternative. Because you know what? They, even today, don’t acknowledge the economic crises facing the working class of this country. Now you tell me, how many Democrats are going around saying: You know what? We have a health care system that is broken, completely. We are the only major country on Earth not to guarantee health care to all people I’ve introduced Medicare for All. You know how many Democrats in the Senate I have on board?
Leonhardt: How many?
Sanders: Fifteen — out of a caucus of 47.
Leonhardt: And you think Medicare for All is both good policy and good politics?
Sanders: Of course, it’s good policy! Health care is a human right! I feel very strongly about that. And I think the function of our health care system should not make the drug companies and the insurance companies phenomenally rich. We guarantee health care to all people — that’s what most Americans think. Where’s the leader?
I think that at a time when we have more income and wealth inequality, you know what the American people think? Maybe we really levy some heavy duty taxes on the billionaire class. I believe that. I think most Americans, including a number of Republicans, believe that. Hmm, not quite so sure where the Democrats are. I believe that you don’t keep funding a war criminal like Netanyahu to starve the children of Gaza. That’s what I believe. It’s what most Americans believe. An overwhelming majority in the Democratic world believes it. Hmm, Democratic leadership, maybe not quite so much.
The point is that, right now, 60 percent of our people have been paycheck to paycheck. I don’t know that the Democratic leadership understands that there are good, decent people out there working as hard as they can, having a hard time paying their rent. Because the cost of housing is off the charts, health care is off the charts, child care is off the charts. The campaign finance system is completely broken. When Musk can spend $270 million to elect Trump, you’ve got a broken system. Our job is to create an economy and a political system that works for working people, not just billionaires.
Leonhardt: So the key to you is the Democratic Party needs to tell a story and implement policy —
Sanders: I don’t know. You talk about the Democratic Party, David. Who are you talking about?
Leonhardt: I’m talking about the leadership of the party —
Sanders: Who is the leadership? The leadership of the party right now? This was the struggle when I ran in 2016. What I said is: Open the bloody doors.
Leonhardt: Meaning?
Sanders: Meaning: Let working-class people in — with all their flaws. They may have said something 28 years ago that they regret saying. Open the door! Open the door to young people. Open the door to people of color.
Leonhardt: As candidates, you mean?
Sanders: As candidates, as participants. I don’t know if you know this: I went to West Virginia, I don’t know, two months ago.
Leonhardt: Yes.
Sanders: I went to a county in West Virginia — which voted for Trump. We had hundreds of people coming out. Unbelievable what I heard. Decent, hardworking, good people. Did you know there is no Democratic Party, basically, in West Virginia?
Leonhardt: The party has given up.
Sanders: Yes. It’s not only West Virginia. It’s state after state after state. The Democratic Party has abdicated — they’ve given up. They’re not fighting for the working class. What the Democratic Party has been is a billionaire-funded, consultant-driven party — and way out of touch with where the working class of this country is.
Leonhardt: Let’s talk about what a true working-class politics might look like. So I think, clearly, a part of that is a much bolder economic policy.
Sanders: Yes.
Leonhardt: And you’ve made that much of your life’s work. I do think there’s another part of it, and when I look at your career, I see that.
So your old colleague, Pat Leahy, once said that you appealed to an anti-establishment strain in Vermont that is not necessarily liberal. When I think about what a true working-class politics might look like, I think about the fact that in your history, you spoke positively about hunting and you got support from gun owners. And you really did better in rural Vermont than a lot of other Democrats.
Just to think about Vermont for a minute: You sent the signal that you were not from one of the fancy Vermont towns like Charlotte but that you actually understood the interests of people in less affluent, rural Vermont.
Sanders: I am one of those people. I grew up in a three-and-a-half-room, rent-controlled apartment. It is not “those” people. Those are my people.
Leonhardt: Part of that, I think, is being willing to defy the Democratic Party orthodoxy, not only on economic issues but also on some social issues. And you did that. You did that on guns, for example. I’m curious whether you think that a true working-class politics needs to incorporate the views of working-class people — not only on economics but also on issues where many working-class people just have different views than the faculty lounge at a fancy university.
Sanders: I have spent my whole life believing — not a radical idea — that women have a right to control their own body. We’ve got to end sexism. We’ve got to end racism. We’ve got to end homophobia. Very, very important.
I’ll tell you a funny story. Way back when — I can’t remember the year — in Vermont there was the constitutional amendment for women’s rights. Do you remember that? And it turns out that a number of people who voted against that voted for me. In other words, you’ve got to have a tolerance. I believe, again, women have a right to control their own body. There are people who disagree with me. What am I supposed to do? Throw them out? Discard them completely because they disagree with me?
In this country today, in one sense, there’s a lot of disunity, clearly, and a lot of people divided. But on the basic issues: Is health care a human right? Pretty much most people think yes. Should the rich start paying their fair share of taxes? Yes. Should we build low income and affordable housing? Yes. Is the campaign finance system currently corrupt? Yes. In the richest nation on Earth, should elderly people be able to retire with security and dignity? Yes. So you’ve got to be tolerant. I mean: So what? You don’t agree with me on every issue? What am I going to do? We’re going to work together and come up with the best plan that we can.
Leonhardt: We want to play a clip of an interview you did with Ezra Klein, who’s now my colleague. At the time he was at Vox, and it’s about immigration.
Archived clip of Ezra Klein: I think if you take global poverty that seriously, it leads you to conclusions that in the U.S. are considered out of political bounds. Things like sharply raising the level of immigration we permit, even up to a level of open borders. About sharply increasing —
Sanders: Open borders? No, that’s a Koch brothers proposal.
Klein: Really?
Sanders: Of course. I mean, that’s a right-wing proposal, which says, essentially: There is no United States.
Leonhardt: Can you say more about your views on immigration?
Sanders: Look, there are people who want cheap labor coming into this country to lower wages — no question about it. Where we are right now is that we have, we think, about 10 million undocumented people in this country.
The overwhelming majority of those people came to this country for the same, exact reason as my father, who came from Poland without a nickel in his pocket: to create a better life for themselves. And many of them actually brought their little kids here. They fled violence, they fled poverty. The overwhelming — overwhelming — majority of these people are working hard. During Covid, those were the people in the meatpacking plants. Those were the people who were coming down with Covid and dying. They were keeping the economy going.
The failure of both the Democratic and the Republican parties in the last number of decades is that we have not developed a comprehensive immigration reform and, in my view, a path toward citizenship for those people.
And I think what Trump is doing right now is disgusting. It is what demagogues always do. You take a powerless minority — maybe it’s the Jews in Europe during the ’30s, maybe it’s Gypsies, maybe it’s gay people, maybe it’s Black people. You name the minority, and you blame all the problems of the world on those people. That’s what Trump is doing with the undocumented. My view is very, very different. I think we’ve got to move toward comprehensive immigration reform and a path toward citizenship for people who are, by and large, working very hard and are a very important part of our economy.
Leonhardt: So Trump is clearly doing outrageous things that deny people their civil rights and that violate their basic humanity right now.
Sanders: Yes.
Leonhardt: There’s no question about that. I also think it’s fair to say that the Biden administration’s immigration policy did essentially reject the views of a lot of working-class Americans. They looked at it and they said: That’s just too open an immigration policy. And I think their discomfort with it was consistent with your longtime view of immigration.
Sanders: Well, what I do think in terms of the Biden administration: So long as we have nation-states, like the United States of America and Canada and Mexico, you have borders. And if you don’t have any borders, in a sense you don’t have a nation-state. Biden tried to make some progress at the end of his tenure. You saw the pictures in Texas of all kinds of undocumented people. And that does not resonate, and it’s not right. We need to have an immigration policy, but you also need to have strong borders. Period.
Leonhardt: The reason I’m pushing you on this is I do think there is greater demand for a true working-class politics in this country than many Democratic elites have often acknowledged. It’s a kind of working-class politics that really could involve moving economic policy in the direction that you want.
But I think for people to win — and when you look at people like Ruben Gallego in Arizona, who has won, or Marcy Kaptur in Ohio, or you, in Vermont: When you first got elected there and it wasn’t a solidly blue state — it is not enough to be populist on economics. Democrats also have to show some basic respect for working-class views and be authentic — rather than just saying that they’re tolerating views on things like immigration or on guns. They genuinely have to have views that are different than really affluent Democrats tend to have on social issues. You think that’s fair?
Sanders: Yes.
Leonhardt: OK. I think it’s really uncomfortable for the Democratic Party because I think that —
Sanders: OK. You see, when you keep, David, talking about the Democratic Party: When I ran for president one of the things that I learned is there isn’t much of a Democratic Party. There are people on the top. When I think about a party, I think about the involvement of large numbers of people at the grass-roots level. You understand what I’m saying?
Leonhardt: Yes.
Sanders: When I think about a party: People disagree, they yell and shout at each other. People have said democracy is kind of messy. But I think sometimes, when people think about the Democratic Party, they think of these cocktail parties in New York City or Los Angeles where wealthy people mingle with consultants, mingle with the leadership. That’s not much of a party. That’s really kind of an elitist institution.
So one of the things that I believe, if the Democratic Party is to survive — maybe it will, maybe it won’t: The transformation has to be to open the doors, to bring in millions of people, to hear what they have to say, to have them start running for office, etc.
Leonhardt: Let’s talk about Trump. You are turning out tens of thousands of people across the country for your Fighting Oligarchy Tour.
Sanders: Well over 300,000 — but who’s counting?
Leonhardt: I was thinking of individual events, but that’s fair — total audience. “Fight Oligarchy” is also the name of your book. I’m curious why you chose “Fighting Oligarchy” as opposed to something that was more Trump specific — like say, “Fighting Authoritarianism.” Why do you think oligarchy is the root cause of how we got to Trumpism?
Sanders: That’s a good question. Obviously I work day and night trying to defeat this guy’s efforts to move us to an authoritarian society. I think the two go hand in glove, by the way. But I think what I wanted to do — what we did in the rallies, and what I wanted to do in the book — is ask the American people to start looking at some very uncomfortable realities. It’s very easy when I could say: Oh, in Russia, now Putin and his friends, that’s an oligarchy. You’ve got a handful of zillionaires running that country. Oh, in Saudi Arabia you have a billion dollar family. All over the world, you’ve got these really wealthy and powerful oligarch types, but not in the United States. Not true.
In America today, we have more income and wealth inequality than we’ve ever had in the history of this country. Over the last 50 years, you have seen a massive transfer of wealth from the bottom 90 percent to the top 1 percent. You have a political system that is dominated by the billionaire class. That’s what Citizens United was all about, that’s what Super PACs are about. So you got Mr. Musk able to contribute 270 million to elect Donald Trump — and Democratic billionaires playing a role.
Obviously, I’m strongly supporting Zohran Mamdani, and it was just amazing to me how upfront the oligarchs were in New York City. One guy says: We’re going to spend whatever it takes. We are landlords — we’re the oligarchy. How dare this guy come in and upset the apple cart? Quite open — that’s what really struck me.
So you have an economy dominated by the very wealthy — a rigged economy. You have a political system dominated by billionaires. You have corporate media having a huge impact. You add it all up, and what do you call that country? You tell me. Is it fair to call it an oligarchy?
Leonhardt: I absolutely think there are oligarchic aspects to our country —
Sanders: Oh, you’re sounding like a New York Times reporter!
Leonhardt: I’m not willing to say that we are already an oligarchy, but I’m worried that we’re very much moving toward that. So I think there’s a huge amount of your diagnosis that I agree with. To some extent, I’m not pushing you on the oligarchy notion — I’m accepting it. I’m asking: In this moment, should we be paying more attention to the authoritarian threat?
Sanders: OK. They go together.
Leonhardt: I agree, they do.
Sanders: The point is — what is very rarely discussed — I’ve been on 48 million television shows, and nobody has ever asked me, not one person has ever said: Bernie, are you worried that so few people in America have so much wealth and so much power, while working-class people are struggling? No one ever asks me that question!
Leonhardt: I bet you make the point anyway, though.
Sanders: I do. I say: Thank you for your silly question. Now I’ll give you the answer to the question that you didn’t ask.
All right, but what do the oligarchs want? When you hear people like Peter Thiel, who is a billionaire, actively involved in A.I. and robotics — he refers to his opponents, not as people he disagrees with, but as the Antichrist. Did you see that?
Literally, the word was “Antichrist” — a religious critique — because these guys have the divine right to rule. And when Trump gets elected, at his inauguration, and he has all of these multibillionaires behind him: a) These guys are doing phenomenally well. They love Donald Trump, no doubt. But, b) What do they want? Do they want to pay taxes? No. Do they like unions? No, they want to break unions. Do they want any form of regulation in A.I. and robotics? No way. You’re an Antichrist. Ha! You’re immoral. You’re a devil, literally, if you try to interfere with us.
They like oligarchy. They like authoritarianism. Because people like Putin, who gives the oligarchs in Russia the opportunity to do anything they want — that’s what Trump is doing right here in this country.
Leonhardt: I would say Russia has made it to full oligarchy, by the way.
Sanders: Yes, but let me tell you, there are some people on the right now who are beginning to refer to the United States Congress as the Duma. People blabbing all day long, powerless. Trump has all the power.
Leonhardt: You mentioned Zohran Mamdani.
Sanders: Yes.
Leonhardt: New York is obviously different from the rest of the United States in a whole bunch of ways. What lessons do you want Democrats who are from swing states or red states to take from Zohran Mamdani?
Sanders: Oh, stop! My God, you keep sounding like a New York Times reporter!
Leonhardt: Well, I am.
Sanders: Oh, I didn’t know that. All right. Get over something.
Leonhardt: OK.
Sanders: I grew up in Brooklyn. It’s very different than West Virginia —
Leonhardt: Yes.
Sanders: Different than Maine, different than other states. But at the end of the day — and I say this not to be sweepingly rhetorical — the overwhelming majority of Americans are working-class people.
And what Mamdani is talking about in New York is that people cannot afford the outrageous cost of housing. You know what? It’s true in Vermont. It’s true in West Virginia. It’s true in virtually every state in this country. He’s talking about affordability, talking about child care. You know what? There’s a child care crisis in almost every state in this country. Don’t use the words “red state” or “blue state.” When I hear “red states,” to me it’s an abdication of the Democratic Party in fighting for the working class.
People have no alternative, and they vote for the Trumps of the world. If we are bold — and we’ve got to be really bold — in demanding that in the wealthiest country in the history of the world — you tell me, you tell me: Why, in the richest country, all of our people cannot have a decent standard of living? There is no excuse for that — other than the greed of the billionaire class who have so much power and the acquiescence of the political class in allowing that to happen.
Leonhardt: I mean, this ties together our conversation nicely. Because I agree that Mamdani’s message on affordability can resonate in the entire country. But when you look at the Democrats who have won in places where it’s harder for Democrats to win than New York, they sound very different from him on something like policing — very different. They appear in their ads with police officers. They talk about the border. There’s basically no counterexample of a Democrat who has won a tough race without doing things like that.
Sanders: I think the world is changing, by the way, and I think you’re going to see more of that. I think you’re seeing candidates right now running. And by the way, in terms of the police, one of the reasons I was elected mayor of Burlington, Vt., a few years ago, in 1981 — you know who endorsed me? The Burlington Patrolmen’s Association. That was the police union. And you know who endorsed me two years later, because I did good things in reforming the police department? The Burlington policeman’s union. And two years later? Burlington policeman’s union. And two years after that.
I understand that being a cop is in fact a very difficult job. Enormous responsibility when you have a gun on your hip. Scheduling is crazy. The divorce rate among cops is very, very high. They live under a lot of stress — all right? Treat them with the respect as they are doing a very, very difficult job. Can we tolerate racism within police departments? Not at all. Is there brutality? Absolutely. Do we need reforms? Yes. But police play a very important role, and they should be respected.
Leonhardt: Look, that’s, I think, the kind of message that can resonate with a huge number of Americans. I don’t think it’s the message a lot of Democrats have always given, but I think that’s part of what interests me so much about your politics.
Sanders: By the way, I am an independent.
Leonhardt: I know.
Sanders: Not a Democrat.
Leonhardt: I know. Let’s talk about another debate that has gotten people excited — and I’m really curious about your view: the abundance debate. Which is this idea that one of the things that government needs to do and progressives need to do is clear out bureaucracy so that our society can make more stuff — homes, clean energy. What do you think of the abundance movement?
Sanders: Well, it’s got a lot of attention among the elite, if I may say so.
Leonhardt: Yes.
Sanders: Look, if the argument is that we have a horrendous bureaucracy? Absolutely correct. It is terrible. Over the years, I brought a lot of money into the state of Vermont. It is incredible, even in a state like Vermont — which is maybe better than most states — how hard it is to even get the bloody money out! Oh, my God! We’ve got 38 meetings! We’ve got to talk about this. Unbelievable.
I worked for years to bring two health clinics that we needed into the state of Vermont. I wanted to renovate one and build another one. You cannot believe the level of bureaucracy to build a bloody health center. It’s still not built. All right? So I don’t need to be lectured on the nature of bureaucracy. It is horrendous, and that is real.
But that is not an ideology. That is common sense. Any manager — you’re a corporate manager, you’re a mayor, you’re a governor — you’ve got to get things done. And the bureaucracy — federal bureaucracy, many state bureaucracies — makes that very, very difficult. But that is not an ideology.
It’s good government. That’s what we should have. Ideology is: Do you create a nation in which all people have a standard of living? Do you have the courage to take on the billionaire class? Do you stand with the working class? That’s ideology. Breaking through bureaucracy and creating efficiencies? That’s good government.
Leonhardt: But it would be a meaningful change if states were able to reduce bureaucracy. It may not be an ideology, but it doesn’t happen today.
Sanders: Get things done!
Leonhardt: And you agree that we should do more of that?
Sanders: Absolutely.
Leonhardt: That we should have policy changes to simplify things, to deliver —
Sanders: I did my best when I was mayor — we’re a small city of 40,000 people — to break through the bureaucracy. And I was a good mayor. So there’s no question that you have people who it seems to be their function in life is to make sure things don’t happen. We should not be paying people to do that.
Leonhardt: Right-wing nationalism is ascendant in much of the world.
Sanders: Yes.
Leonhardt: And it is extremely dangerous in many ways, as we are seeing in this country, as we’re seeing in Europe, as we’re seeing elsewhere. I’m curious what you think is an effective progressive response. Is there a version of progressive patriotism that can counter right-wing nationalism? Is there something that is more than a sum of smart policies — but instead becomes a narrative and a message and something inspiring, where people can say: We want that — rather than this really reactionary nationalism?
Sanders: Good question. As you’ve indicated, if you look at not only the United States and Trumpism, but if you look at France, if you look at the U.K. right now, where the leading candidate is a right-wing extremist, if you look at Germany — often, as you indicate, immigration is the issue.
Leonhardt: Yes.
Sanders: OK. What demagogues, as I mentioned earlier, always do is: You take a minority who are powerless, and you blame them for all of the problems. I think what we have got to see is that in America, and in many parts of the developed world, what has been happening over the last 50 years, especially in rural parts, is the rich get much richer, and zillions of people get left behind. Real inflation accounted for wages for the average American worker have been flat for 50 years. So people are angry.
Leonhardt: Yes.
Sanders: I think you need an economic agenda that says to people in England, France, Germany, throughout Europe, throughout Latin America, that with all of this technology, we can create a new world in which all of our people have a decent standard of living. That doesn’t solve all of the problems, but I think absolutely, at this time of growing income and wealth inequality, when the oligarchs are trying to destroy democracy all over the world, that’s an important part of the antidote.
Leonhardt: My worry is that a sort of whole-world message falls flat. I think of you as a patriot. I don’t know if you think of yourself as a patriot.
Sanders: Absolutely.
Leonhardt: Do you think patriotism within this country is an important part of that story?
Sanders: Look, when I was at Trump’s inaugural — I actually got pushed into the front row for whatever reason — and sitting behind him were the three wealthiest guys in the world. Behind them were billionaires Trump had nominated to run government agencies. And, honest to God, what I thought of when I was there looking at that scene: I was thinking about Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg. After that terrible battle to help ban slavery in America, Lincoln gets up and says: These thousands of soldiers did not die in vain. They died so that we can maintain a government “of the people, by the people, for the people.”
So you want a nationalism? You want a patriotic nationalism? That’s what it is. People fought and died, not just from the Civil War and the Revolutionary War. World War II died to defend democracy, and we need a government and an economy that works for all of us, not just a handful of wealthy campaign donors. That’s your nationalism.
We love this country. My father came from a very poor family in Poland — antisemitism, poverty — came to America and never in a million years — the fact that his two kids were able to go to college. Unbelievable! Unbelievable. That is the truth of millions and millions and millions of people in this country. This is a great country. It has given so much to so many people, and we’re going to do everything that we can to make sure that Trump does not divide us up, does not move us into an authoritarian society.
Leonhardt: Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you so much.
Sanders: Thank you very much.
Thoughts? Email us at [email protected].
This episode of “The Opinions” was produced by Jillian Weinberger. It was edited by Alison Bruzek and Kaari Pitkin. Mixing by Efim Shapiro and Isaac Jones. Original music by Carole Sabouraud. Fact-checking by Mary Marge Locker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Kristina Samulewski. The director of Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
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