On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent
- House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, Democrat of New York
- Sen. Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina
- Rep. John Moolenaar, Republican of Michigan
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: President Trump travels to Asia, hoping to make trade deals with foreign friends and adversaries alike. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent will be here with breaking news in advance of the much anticipated Trump-Xi meeting.
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(CHEERING)
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MARGARET BRENNAN: President Trump was all smiles as he kicked off a trip filled with plans for international wheeling and dealing.
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DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): And we should smile, I think, right?
MAN: Yes.
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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Everybody, smile.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: He may be ready for dealmaking abroad, but back home, the standoff over funding the government continues. Health care subsidies for the Affordable Care Act are about to run out, causing premiums for millions to spike, and grocery prices continue to soar.
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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Inflation, I have already taken care of. Economically, the country is the strongest it’s ever been. Thank God for tariffs. If we didn’t have tariffs, we’d be a Third World nation.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries will be here, as will South Carolina Republican Senator Lindsey Graham.
We will also talk with Congressman John Moolenaar. He’s the head of the House Select Committee on Strategic Competition Between the U.S. and the Chinese Communist Party.
Finally, also breaking this morning, Paris prosecutors say arrests have been made in last week’s robbery of an estimated $100 million worth of jewels and diamonds at the Louvre.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
President Trump has left the government shutdown, now in its 26th day, behind him and is making his way through three Asian countries on a globe- trotting trade tour this week. His trip will culminate on Thursday, when he meets with Chinese President Xi Jinping in South Korea.
We spoke just a short while ago with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent, who has been leading the trade talks with China in advance of the meeting between the leaders of the world’s two largest economies. We asked the secretary whether or not the president’s threat to impose a 155 percent tariff on China effective November 1 was still on the table.
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SCOTT BESSENT (U.S. Treasury Secretary): Margaret, I think we had a very good two-day meeting.
I would believe that the – so it would be an extra 100 percent from where we are now. And I believe that that is effectively off the table. I’m not going to get ahead of the two leaders, who will be meeting in Korea on Thursday, but I can tell you we had a very good two days.
So I would expect that the threat of the 100 percent has gone away, as has the threat of the immediate imposition of the Chinese initiating a worldwide export control regime.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That export control on rare earths, which is used in all sorts of electronics and automobiles, that will be lifted?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, it was never imposed, so they threatened to impose it in December.
And President Trump, to give me and the trade team leverage, decided that it would be a good idea for him to threaten a 100 percent additional tariff, and it did give us a great deal of leverage. President Trump’s very good at creating leverage for us. This is the fourth meeting – excuse me – – the fifth meeting that we’ve had with the Chinese.
My Chinese counterpart is the vice premier, He Lifeng. So we had a very good two days. We discussed a wide variety of issues, from the rare earth mag – from the rare earth magnets, to trade, to substantial purchases of American agricultural products, to the Chinese helping us in this fentanyl crisis that we have in the U.S.
MARGARET BRENNAN: On the purchases of American goods. American farmers have been hit hard by China’s boycott of American soybeans that went into place after the tariff war began here.
The administration is pumping at least $3 billion in financial aid to farmers to help make them whole, or at least offset the pain. Can farmers expect to sell their soybeans to China again, and when?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Margaret, I’m not going to give you the details here, but I can tell you that the soybean farmers are going to be extremely happy with this deal for this year and for the coming years.
MARGARET BRENNAN: A few weeks ago, there was a photographer who snapped a photo of you texting with the agricultural secretary about this. She indicated concern about the unintended damage to American farmers from the U.S. financial lifeline being given to Argentina because that country was able to sell more to China.
That gave Beijing leverage over the United States. Is that leverage still a problem today?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, first – first of all, the text from Secretary Rollins was talking – talking about a purchase of soybeans that the Chinese did.
And, Margaret, those soybeans were always going to get purchased. They just did it at a time when the Argentines had lifted their export taxes. So those – those soybeans were always going to be on the market. It’s a global market. The three leading suppliers are Brazil, Argentina and the U.S.
And I believe that we have brought the market back into equilibrium, and I believe that the Chinese will be making substantial purchases again.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you dispute the idea that America hurt itself by giving this $20 billion lifeline to Argentina? Can you guarantee Americans they’ll be made whole on that?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Margaret, I can tell you that the Exchange Stabilization Fund has never lost money. It will not lose money this time. And we are not giving money to Argentina. It is a swap line, which the U.S. has done many times in the past, and we’ve never lost money.
MARGARET BRENNAN: On the Chinese, I saw that you mentioned TikTok was discussed. Are the details of the president’s executive order released in September, are those finalized? Has China agreed to give up control of the algorithm that determines what users see?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Margaret, we reached a final deal on TikTok. We reached one in Madrid, and I believe that, as of today, all the details are ironed out, and that will be for the two leaders to consummate that transaction on Thursday in Korea.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Can you tell us any details of that transaction?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Margaret, I’m not part of the commercial side of the transaction. The – my – my remit was to get the Chinese to agree to approve the transaction, and I believe we successfully accomplished that over the past two days.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Over the past two days, did the U.S. make any concessions here, beyond what we discussed with the tariffs? Are you dropping restrictions on exports of, for example, semiconductor chips or restrictions on Chinese investment in the United States?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: There have been no – no changes via – in our export controls.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When Presidents Xi and Trump are able to speak on Thursday, do you believe that the president’s position here, his ability to negotiate a deal with China, is going to be hurt by the fact that he’s been unable to get a deal here at home to reopen the U.S. government?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, look, I – I don’t think it’s going to – I don’t think it’s going to hurt. It’s a global embarrassment what these Democratic senators are doing, keep – keeping the government shut down.
I mean, look at the numbers. It’s 52 to three, 52 Republican senators. Three Democratic senators have come across the line. So I just think it’s an embarrassment. Doesn’t affect his ability on the international stage.
Now, what it does affect, it’s starting to affect the economy. It’s starting to slow down air traffic. And I would urge moderate Democrats to be heroes, come across the aisle, like they did in the spring, and pass a clean C.R.
MARGARET BRENNAN: A continuing resolution just to fund the government without any add-ons.
Does that mean, when the president comes back to the United States, he’s going to summon congressional leaders to the White House to end what you call the global embarrassment?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: I don’t know what good it does to summon them to the White House. This is a Democratic-led boycott, and I’m just not sure what they’re doing.
What’s changed between now and March, other than Chuck Schumer’s poll numbers? And I think Hakeem Jeffries is now going to be primaried from the left, and I didn’t think there was a lot of room over there. So both of them are worried about their primaries, and not the American people, not the government employees, not our military employees, because we were able to pay the military employees from excess funds at the Pentagon middle of this month.
I think we’ll be able to pay them beginning in November. But by November 15, our troops and service members, who are willing to risk their lives, aren’t going to be able to get paid. What an embarrassment.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Understood. We’ll talk to Hakeem Jeffries later in the program.
I want to ask you about what the president just announced in regard to Canada. Today, the president said he wants to raise tariffs on Mexico. Yesterday, he said he’s going to raise tariffs on Canada by 10 percent. He blames what he called a fraudulent ad that featured Ronald Reagan advocate – advocating for free trade.
It was put up by the province of Ontario. Is this ad really the issue here, or is it just a tactic in this negotiation? Does the president want the USMCA free trade deal renegotiated, or is he looking to do two separate deals, one with Canada, one with Mexico?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, a lot of questions there, Margaret, but let’s go to the first one.
I have read that the province of Ontario is spending up to $75 million on these advertisements, and it’s propaganda coming across our border to decry the tariffs. So the premier of Ontario seems to have come off the rails a little. He has taken the ads down.
But what’s the purpose of that, other than to try to sway U.S. public opinion? We’ve seen the – I’m sure you at your network have decried election interference. Well, this is interference in U.S. sovereign matters.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But is it really the premise for damaging negotiations with a top trading partner?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, it’s clearly damaged our relationship the – – with the most populous province in Canada.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When it comes to inflation here at home, the president said it’s been defeated. But, as you know, that core inflation edged up to 3 percent in September, less than forecast, hotter than August.
But for people at home, they are seeing prices still high on furniture, energy, gardening, lawn care, apparel. Do you expect these things to cool off, and when?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, it is cooling off, because the core inflation number that you referenced was 0.2 percent, which is down the – from the previous sequence over the previous months.
And you listed the things that are up, but we’re seeing plenty of things that are down, whether it’s energy and rents. Inflation is a composite number. And I think we are on a glide path to lower inflation over the coming months.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Lower inflation, but not necessarily that Americans will look around and things have gotten cheaper.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Margaret, again, there’s affordability and then there is inflation.
So, some of the things that can get cheaper, rent has gotten cheaper. Mortgages have gotten cheaper. We are at, I believe, an 11- or 12-month low on mortgage rates.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Secretary, before I let you go, I want to ask you.
The U.S. sanctioned Russia’s top oil and gas companies this past week, but Vladimir Putin’s envoy, who is here in the United States, Kirill Dmitriev, I know you know him, said the sanctions will have – quote – “absolutely no effect on Russia’s economy. They will simply lead to higher prices at gas stations in the United States.”
Is Dmitriev wrong? And when will Russia actually feel the pain?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, I think Russia is going to feel the pain immediately.
I can tell you that we’ve already seen India has done a complete halt of Russian oil purchases. Many of the Chinese refineries have stopped. And, Margaret, are you really going to – the – publish what a Russian propagandist says?
I mean, what else is he going to say, that, oh, it’s going to be terrible and it’s going to bring Putin to the table? Of course. The Russian economy is a wartime economy. Growth is virtually zero. Inflation, I believe, is over 20 percent.
And everything we do is going to bring Putin to the – to the table. It’s oil that funds the Russian war machine, and I think we can make a substantial dent in his profits.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I understood. You had some competing noise there.
But, just to be clear, Dmitriev is in the United States because sanctions were – were lifted on him to conduct meetings here, including with President Trump’s envoy, Steve Witkoff. When you say he’s a propagandist, do you mean that we shouldn’t listen to anything he says?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: I – what do you think – what do you think is going to happen to him if he goes back home and says the – the – good lord, what if he had said on TV, this is terrible, President Trump just did the right thing, this is a maximum pressure campaign that’s going to work?
Margaret, what’s he going to say? Of course he’s going to say this. If you go through and look at every Russian talking point, they seem to use the word we have immunized the economy against this. Well, they haven’t immunized the economy.
Their oil earnings are down 20 percent year over year. I would suspect that this could take them down another 20 or 30 percent. So, again, President Trump was criticized for not doing enough. He takes his bold maneuver, and then you’re quoting a Russian propagandist.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, we’ll leave it there with you. Mr. Secretary, I know you’ve had a long day. Thank you for your time.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Thank you.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: Face the Nation will be back in one minute. Stay with us.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’re back with the top Democrat in the House, Leader Hakeem Jeffries. He joins us from his Brooklyn, New York district.
Good morning.
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-New York): Good morning. Great to be with you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Leader Jeffries, Treasury Secretary Bessent said the shutdown is starting to affect the economy, and, by November 15, the troops will not be paid. Do you expect the shutdown to last that long?
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: I certainly hope not. This is day 26 of the Trump-Republican shutdown.
And, as Democrats, we have maintained from the very beginning and continue to maintain we will sit down anytime, any place, with anyone either at the Capitol or back at the White House to reopen the government to negotiate a bipartisan spending agreement that actually meets the needs of the American people and to decisively address the Republican health care crisis, particularly as it relates to the urgent need to extend the Affordable Care Act tax credits, so we can prevent tens of millions of Americans from experiencing dramatically increased health insurance premiums that will make access to a doctor unaffordable.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to come back to health care in a moment, but the treasury secretary accused you of playing politics personally.
And I know that your Democratic Whip, Katherine Clark, said on FOX this past week that shutdowns are terrible, but, as she put it, it’s one of the few leverage items Democrats have. Do you think Democrats are gaining from this fight?
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: No, our focus continues to be on driving down the high cost of living for everyday Americans.
Donald Trump and Republicans promised that they would lower costs on day one. We know costs haven’t gone down. They’re going up. Inflation is moving in the wrong direction. The Trump tariffs have made life more expensive for the American people, to the tune of thousands of additional dollars per year.
We know that electricity bills are through the roof. Housing costs are too high, childcare costs are too high, groceries too expensive. And now tens of millions of Americans are at risk of having their premiums explode…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: … in some cases by $1,000 to $2,000 per year. That’s what this fight for us is all about.
Republicans have come up with a new conspiracy theory every week for the last six weeks. The Democratic position, Margaret, has been clear, cancel the cuts, lower the cost, save health care.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, that was the quote from the whip herself when she said leverage.
But I hear you on rising health care costs. But the immediate term, people aren’t getting paid; 750,000 federal workers are on unpaid leave. Eighty percent of the folks who work on our nuclear program are included in that figure. The agriculture secretary said there will be delays in food staps – – stamps for many of the 41 million people who rely on SNAP.
And then at airports across the country, half of the flight delays, according to the transportation secretary, are because of staffing shortages. This pain is real now. So, is there a point at which it becomes too great to justify continuing the shutdown?
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: Well, there is an urgent need to reopen the government, which is why we continue to demand that Republicans sit at the negotiating table so we can enact a spending agreement that’s bipartisan in nature.
That’s what we’ve called for from the very beginning. Unfortunately…
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the Republicans are saying…
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: … Republicans have refused to sit down.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … they won’t do that until you pass the funding bill, the clean funding bill that already passed the House. Why can’t Democrats in the Senate get on board with that?
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: Well, we’ve made clear – and I’m thankful for the leadership of Chuck Schumer and Senate Democrats – that we – we’re not going to support a partisan Republican spending bill that continues to gut the health care of the American people in an environment where Republicans have already enacted the largest cut to Medicaid in American history.
Hospitals, nursing homes and community-based health centers are closing all across the country. There is the possibility that Medicare could face a $536 billion cut, the largest cut to Medicare in history, if Congress doesn’t act by the end of this year, because of what Republican policies have done in their one big, ugly bill.
And now they refuse to extend the Affordable Care Act tax credits. That impacts working-class Americans, middle-class Americans and everyday Americans throughout the country, including in rural America.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well – well, they haven’t refused. Leader Thune said he’d even put that up for a vote if you open the government first.
But next Saturday is the beginning of open enrollment. I mean, people are going to see what that bill is going to look like. Practically speaking, aren’t you out of time here? Insurance companies have set these premiums in place. That’s how they’re already in the mail for people to open and see on Saturday.
What becomes the strategy after November 1 if this shutdown lasts that long?
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: Well, listen, we want to reopen the government, and we need to stand by our hard working federal employees who are doing all that they can to make sure that taxpayer dollars are spent effectively and efficiently, even under the most adverse circumstances.
Remember, in terms of federal employees, the Trump administration has fired or dismissed more than 200,000 civil servants prior to them shutting the government down on October 1. We want to reopen the government now. In terms of health care, part of the reality is that tens of millions of people are already receiving notices in October that their premiums are about to skyrocket…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Exactly.
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: … because of the Republican refusal to extend the Affordable Care Act tax credit.
And, by the way, they have had the opportunity, both House Republicans and Senate Republicans, repeatedly throughout the year to extend the Affordable Care Act tax credits. And they’ve consistently voted against it. That’s why we need action, not simply words, a wing-and-a-prayer promise from people who have tried to repeal the Affordable Care Act more than 70 different times since 2010.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But aren’t the premiums already locked in here? Or are you saying Republicans are right when you can make up for it at the end of the year with the tax credit?
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: The premiums are not locked in, in terms of the reality that, if we can act legislatively and act now, we can extend the open enrollment period. We can push it back.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: And we can intervene as a Congress in order to actually protect…
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: … the affordability of health insurance for tens of millions of people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Leader, stay with us. I have to take a quick commercial break.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: The Paris prosecutor’s office announced today that French police have made arrests, although we don’t know how many, in last Sunday’s robbery at the Louvre.
One suspect was detained at the Charles de Gaulle Airport as he tried to flee the country. Thieves stole an estimated $100 million worth of jewels and gems during a brazen daytime robbery that took less than eight minutes.
We will be right back.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back with more from Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries, plus Republican Senator Lindsey Graham.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to “FACE THE NATION.”
We return now to our conversation with House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries.
Leader Jeffries, I want to ask you about some other matters as well. In New York City, a city of more than eight million people, there’s about to be an election of a new mayor. You waited until this Friday, the day before early voting began, to endorse the Democratic socialist candidate, Zohran Mamdani. Why did you wait so long?
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Well, as I indicated, the last several weeks we’ve been immersed in the intensity around the government shutdown and the run-up to that in advance of September 30th and the expiration of the fiscal year.
But I support the Democratic nominee, as I indicated. And we’re in alignment in terms of the issue related to affordability and the need to address it decisively for the city of New York. And, of course, affordability is an issue for people all across the country.
From a public safety standpoint, I supported the notion that he would retain Police Commissioner Jessica Tisch to continue to lead the NYPD forward. That’s incredibly important from a public safety standpoint for every community, including as a high priority the safety and security of the Jewish community. And in terms of the moment that we find ourselves in, Donald Trump represents an existential threat to the city of New York and beyond because of the extreme assault that has taken place throughout this year on the economy, on healthcare, on farmers, on veterans, on law-abiding immigrant communities, on due process, on the rule of law, and, of course, on the American way of life itself. And we all, as Americans, are going to have to be aligned in pushing back so we can end this national nightmare that Donald Trump has visited upon the American people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you still waited until Friday and the election is upon us. But you’re leaving room in your answer there for understanding that you don’t agree with the candidate on some other issues, though you agree with him on affordability.
Since Democrats are running for re-election in the midterm races, you want to retake the House. Would you recommend they mimic some of the Mamdani’s messages as a progressive model for the party?
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: No, what we’ve said from the very beginning is that we have to decisively address the affordability crisis that Donald Trump and Republican policies have made worse in the United States of America. We need to lower the high cost of living. We need to fix our broken healthcare system.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, no.
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: And we need to, of course, clean up corruption in the United States of America.
No, what we’re going to mimic is our own views as it relates to the need to make life more affordable here in America. When you work hard and play by the rules in this country, you should be able to live a comfortable life, live the good life. Good-paying job, good housing, good healthcare, good education for your children and a good retirement. But far too many people are struggling to live paycheck to paycheck and can barely get by.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: That’s unacceptable in the wealthiest country in the history of the world.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about something you said. You said Democrats – “there are no election deniers on our side of the aisle.” You said that back in January. But recently you’ve been using the term “rigged elections” in reference the upcoming midterms. Democrats were appalled when President Trump used language like that. How do you justify using that now? Doesn’t that undermine faith for voters you need to show up?
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: No, I’ve been using that term in the context of Donald Trump’s unprecedented effort to gerrymander congressional maps in a partisan fashion all across the country in order to rig the midterm elections and deny the ability of the American people to actually decide who should be in the majority as it relates to the House of Representatives. The framers of the constitution were very clear.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You know Democrats are also going through – through gerrymandering and redistricting.
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: No, no, no, – well, Democrats are going to push back aggressively to make sure that we have fair maps across the country, not partisan gerrymandering –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well –
REPRESENTATIVE HAKEEM JEFFRIES: Which Republicans have initiated in state after state after state.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Leader Jeffries, thank you for your time this morning.
We’ll be right back.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to Republican Senator Lindsey Graham. He joins us from Seneca, South Carolina.
Welcome back to “FACE THE NATION.”
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Thank you. Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator, on Friday Defense Secretary Hegseth ordered the deployment of the Navy’s most advanced aircraft carrier, the Gerald Ford, to Latin America.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: President Trump was asked if he planned to ask Congress for a declaration of war.
Take a listen.
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DONALD TRUMP, (President of the United States): I don’t think we’re going to necessarily ask for a declaration of war. I think we’re just going to kill people that are bringing drugs into our country, OK? We’re going to kill them. You know, they’re going to be like dead.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: You don’t need an aircraft carrier to hit drug boats. Are land strikes planned?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Yes. Yes, I think that’s a real possibility. I think President Trump’s made a decision that Maduro, the – the leader of Venezuela, is an indicted drug – drug trafficker, that it’s time for him to go. That Venezuela and Colombia have been safe havens for narco terrorists for too long. And President Trump told me yesterday that he plans to brief members of Congress when he gets back from Asia about future potential military operations against Venezuela and Colombia.
So, there will be a congressional briefing about a potential expanding from the sea to the land. I support that idea. But I think he has all the authority he needs.
Senator Gallego, on another network, accused President Trump and our military of committing murder by attacking these drug boats. To our men and women in uniform, you’re not murdering anybody, you’re making America safer by going after narco terrorists. You’re following lawful orders.
When President Bush 41 took Ortega out in Panama, Reagan went into Grenada to deal with the Cuban influence on Grenada in our backyard. He has all the authority in the world. This is not murder, this is protecting America from being poisoned from narco terrorists coming from Venezuela and Colombia.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, a lot there. But just to clarify, the examples you’re citing also involved ground troops. You said time for Maduro to go.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That sounds a lot like regime change.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Yes, it is.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you talking about troops on the ground?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: I’ll let the president speak to that. I’m talking about a briefing that would expand military operations potentially from the sea to the land. It is time for Maduro to go. It was time for Ortega to go. You know, the Monroe Doctrine has being robustly applied by President Trump. So, these military assets are moving forward to deal with a country that’s got blood on its hands when it comes to Americans by flooding our country with drugs from Venezuela and Colombia.
So, I hope Maduro would leave peacefully, but I don’t think he’s going to stay around much longer. I think President Trump is tired of Venezuela being used as a staging platform to poison America.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, there’s a lot there, sir, but you cited a Democratic senator’s criticism. He’s not the only one.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Some of your Republican colleagues have been uncomfortable with what little information has been shared with Congress.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VC)
SENATOR RAND PAUL (R-KY): But if they want all-out war where we kill anybody and everybody that is in the country of Venezuela or coming out, that has to have a declaration of war. It’s something that is not pretty, very expensive. And I’m not in favor of declaring war on Venezuela. But the Congress should vote. The president shouldn’t do this by himself.
SENATOR JAMES LANKFORD (R-OK): If this was happening with this level of insight under the Biden administration, I’d be apoplectic.
(END VC)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Todd Young also criticized this.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What exactly is the end game? Because you’re talking about regime change in Venezuela.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The president saying this is about drug boats.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Yes. Well, I think the end game is to make sure that Venezuela and Colombia cannot be used to poison America. That the narco terrorist dictator, Maduro, no longer be able to threaten our country and to send in drugs to kill Americans.
As to Rand Paul, I just disagree fundamentally with his approach. We didn’t have a declaration to go into Panama. Bush 41 went into Panama to replace the leadership there because the Panama leadership, Panamanian leadership, were working with drug cartels to threaten our country.
Reagan didn’t have a declaration of war, congressional authorization, to deal with Cuban influence.
So, this idea of – Rand Paul, I just fundamentally disagree with.
To the other senators, you deserve more information and you’re going to get more information. But there is no requirement for Congress to declare war before the commander in chief can use force. Panama and Grenada are two examples in our backyard where Republican presidents chose to go after countries and leaders that were threatening our people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But there – there seemed to be a number of issues wound up in here. I know you personally used to serve as a judge advocate in the Air Force.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Yes. Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We looked at the JAG manual. “Preventive self-defense employed to counter non-imminent threats is illegal under international law. So, if we are not at war and these suspected criminals pose no threat of imminent violence, isn’t this potentially a war crime to be killing the people on these boats and then to be taking out a leader?
GRAHAM: No, not at all. I don’t know what manual you’re referring to, but I know what President Bush 41 did. He took down Ortega, the leader of Panama, because he was involved in drug trafficking, threatening our country.
Venezuela is now partnering with Hezbollah. Hezbollah is running out of money because Iran is weak. They’re partnering with drug cartels in Venezuela.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s not new.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: No, it should have stopped.
Here’s what – here’s what’s new. You’ve got a commander in chief that’s not going to put up with this crap. We’re not going to sit on the sidelines and watch boats full of drugs come to our country. We’re going to blow them up and kill the people that want to poison America. And we’re now going to expand operations, I think, to the land. So, please be clear about what I’m saying today. President Donald Trump sees Venezuela and Colombia as direct threats to our country because they house narco terrorist organizations. The leader of Venezuela is an indicted drug dealer in American courts.
So, yes, the game is changing when it comes to drug traffickers and drug cartels. We’re going to use military force, like we have in the past, to protect our country. That’s the new game we’re playing, and I’m glad we’re playing that game. And if I were Maduro, I’d find a way to leave before he goes down.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, is trafficking cocaine an armed attack on the United States? That’s what you’re equating it to?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: I am saying that there’s plenty of law under article – Article II powers of the president are designed to protect our country from threats, foreign and domestic.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Was it illegal for Bush to take Ortega out in Panama? Was it illegal for Bush – Reagan to go into Grenada to stop Cuban influence building this big, long runway. There’s plenty of precedent here to do what he’s doing.
But the game has changed. The game has changed when it comes to narco trafficking drug organizations. We’re going to take you out.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you referenced something earlier, sir, I want to come back to. You said to the men and women of the military that they are carrying out lawful orders.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Yes. Yes, I believe that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Secretary Hegseth removed the top uniformed lawyers in the Air Force, you know this, the Navy and the Army, because he called them road blocks to orders that are given by a commander in chief. There have been other departures as well.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: This raises concern that commanders are not being given adequate legal counsel. That is why you just said that sentence to assure them.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: That’s – that’s garbage. That’s absolute garbage to say that President Trump doesn’t have the –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Which, that Hegseth said that?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: No, no, I’m saying the – the – the theory that President Trump is doing something here illegally, dealing with a country that’s run by an indicted drug dealer, is the same as Panama. There’s a better case to go into Venezuela than there was Panama. There’s a better case to deal with Colombia than there was Grenada.
Yes, I’ve been doing this all of my adult life. I have all the confidence in the world that President Trump has the legal authority, but more importantly, he’s doing the right thing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: More Americans have died from cocaine and fentanyl poisoning than any terrorist group in the world. I am very pleased that we now have a president who is going to use the full force of – of the American people, the might of America, to protect us from narco terrorist states and drug organizations. Keep it up, Mr. President. We’re not committing murder, we’re protecting our nation from people that want to poison us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, there’s obviously buyers on the other end of it, which is why the cartels are selling, right?
But I want to –
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Yes, well –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sorry.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Yes, we’ll do a vote. We’ll do a vote.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I want to come back to, when we talk about lawful orders here, I myself spoke to a former senior commander who said he’d want that in writing because of concern that – that this is going to be down the line questionable. You’ve already heard –
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Wants what in writing?
MARGARET BRENNAN: The orders to carry out operations.
You’ve already heard Democratic lawmakers, including on this program, say that they have concerns about future prosecutions of – of officers.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Well, act on your concerns. Why don’t you – why don’t you – I’d – OK, if you’ve got concerns, here’s what we can do as members of Congress. We can cut off funding for military operations we don’t like. So, if you’re concerned as a Democrat or a Republican, why don’t you introduce legislation to cut off all funding to the military when it comes to attacking drug boats and going after narco terrorist states through the military. You can do that. Go ahead and do that. I’ll vote no. I think he has all the authority in the world under Article II and international law to make sure that countries like Venezuela can’t be staging areas to infiltrate drugs into our country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: It’s not – I think he has all the legal authority in the world and I’m just really glad he’s doing this. And, Mr. President, keep it up.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we look forward to hearing those justifications when they are shared with Congress. You made some news there, Senator. Thank you for your time today.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And joining us now is the chairman of the House Select Committee on the Chinese Communist Party, Michigan Republican Representative John Moolenaar.
Welcome, Congressman.
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR, (R-MI): Thank you, Margaret. Good to be with you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So much to get to with you. But just quickly, if the prime adversary and threat to the United States is in China, in the Pacific, is bringing them to the – all the military to the western hemisphere in such full force and focus the thing to do?
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: Well, I think we’re sending an important message that we’re no longer going to allow drug trafficking coming in and killing American lives. And, you know, China is very much behind the fentanyl crisis that’s killed hundreds of thousands of Americans.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: And so –
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s out of Mexico, primarily.
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: Well, and – and I think the president takes the western hemisphere very seriously. And getting the drugs out of our backyard I think is an important step forward.
MARGARET BRENNAN: On the committee work that you’ve been doing, I’m sure you heard from Treasury Secretary Bessent at the top of the program that he says China has agreed to the TikTok deal. One hundred and seventy million Americans use this social media app. Congress had passed a law to force the sale and cited it as a national security threat if it continued to operate the way it has.
Have your national security concerns about the app and about this transaction been addressed?
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: Well, I think it’s important that we note that it – the law requires a divestment. And getting the Chinese Communist Party control away from the app, as well as the algorithm, and it allows ownership only up to 20 percent for the Chinese entity ByteDance. And, to me, it’s very important that that’s carried out. We don’t know all the specifics of this, but we know that American companies are very interested in participating. There’s the proposal for a lease agreement. But how you get that algorithm completely out of the Chinese control is going to be up to the experts. You know, there’s six million pieces of code in this algorithm, and we need to make sure that it’s protected for the American people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So that algorithm is the data tracking system that’s pulled from a user’s habits. And so the accusation was also that this was basically manipulating consumers in terms of what they were able to see. So, will that algorithm be maintained, and will upgrades only be conducted by, for example, American engineers?
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: That would be my recommendation because ultimately we don’t want a Chinese propaganda effort.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: Affecting 170 million Americans. We also want to make sure that data from Americans is – is kept secure. And as long as the Chinese are involved, I think there’s reasons for distrust and
MARGARET BRENNAN: Even with the 20 percent stake?
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: I – I’m still concerned about it. Quite frankly, you know, the Chinese report to the Chinese Communist Party. And they will leverage every advantage they get. But the president has set a goal of making this available to the American people following the law that was passed in a bipartisan way, and I trust that they are doing that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The president has not been following the letter of the law that you voted for. You know that.
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: Well, I think – I think the goal has been to come to an agreement, to come to a deal. And they’ve been working very hard to do that. But when you have the Chinese Communist Party, Xi Jinping, with direct leverage on this in terms of what they will do, what they won’t do, it’s very difficult to continue to make that available.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: But I trust the people who are negotiating that recognize, we’ve got to get the control of the algorithm away from the Chinese Communist Party, the app, and make sure that the ownership is controlled by America, not China.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, let’s talk about that ownership. The president said the investors would include Michael Dell, Lachlan Murdoch, whose family owns Fox News, and Larry Ellison, whose son owns Paramount, parent company of CBS News.
Do you have concerns that people who are boosters of the president will have ownership of social media in this way?
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: You know, I think there’s –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Since it’s so powerful.
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: Well, there are some, I’m sure, investors. Not everybody is simply a supporter of the president. But I – I believe that in this case Congress has a role for oversight. And we will be meeting with the parties of transaction. We also will have hearings on this because, at the end of the day, we want this controlled by American companies, regardless of what their political affiliation. We don’t want it controlled by the Chinese Communist Party.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But Secretary Bessent said he got the Chinese to say yes. And on Thursday he used the word “consummated,” that this deal will be signed off between Xi and Trump. So, are your hearings just after the fact or, you know, what effect do you hope they will have?
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: Well, oversight. Congress has a legitimate role of oversight. We passed a law –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Meaning you assume this deal is done, that this transaction is happening and you’re just going to monitor it?
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: I – I would assume that if the president comes to an agreement, which he’s charged to do under the law, and if that happens on Thursday, then it will move forward. And there may be challenges to that law or the implementation of it, but Congress has a role of oversight to ensure that the law is followed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: “The Wall Street Journal” reported that Xi Jinping called TikTok, quote, “spiritual opium,” and he saw this as just like a low-cost bargaining chip for China. Do you think that that’s what’s happening here?
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: I believe –
MARGARET BRENNAN: That this is just an easy thing to hand over to – to President Trump?
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: I believe it’s a very addictive app. China has made a lot of money because of that. But they’ve also used it in a way that allows, you know, their information, their propaganda, to be propagated. They control the algorithm. And that’s why we passed that bipartisan law.
So, I – I believe Xi Jinping views this as a strategic asset. That’s why he didn’t want to sell it to some of the other American companies that were interested in purchasing it. So, as long as they’re involved, I think we have to recognize that TikTok, even an American version, still could be open to influence from the Chinese Communist Party.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Or whoever owns it.
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: Whoever owns it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The algorithm.
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: The algorithm.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
Congressman, thank you very much. And we’ll be watching for those hearings, if you have them.
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MOOLENAAR: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us today. Thank you all for watching. Until next week. For “FACE THE NATION,” I’m Margaret Brennan.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
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