On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Secretary of State Marco Rubio
- House Speaker Mike Johnson, Republican of Louisiana
- Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, Democrat of New York
- Sen. Tammy Duckworth, Democrat of Illinois
- Ret. Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: Is Israel’s war with Hamas finally coming to an end? Meanwhile, the government shutdown continues with no end in sight.
Two years after the October 7 massacre that killed more than 1,200 Israelis, is a serious plan for a full hostage release and cease-fire in Gaza finally materializing? Secretary of State Marco Rubio will tell us where that deal stands and what’s ahead for Gaza, where more than 67,000 have been killed in the war’s destruction.
Plus, the Trump administration continues to ramp up its federal presence in blue cities.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): We’re going to straighten them out one by one. It’s the enemy from within, and we have to handle it before it gets out of control.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we will take a closer look at the Trump Department of War’s new rules for the military. Illinois Democratic Senator Tammy Duckworth will join us, as well as retired Army Lieutenant General Ben Hodges.
Finally, as Congress continues their standoff on government funding, we will talk with House Speaker Mike Johnson and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer about why Americans say the shutdown is hurting both political parties.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
When word came late Friday that Hamas was open to the 20-point plan devised by President Trump and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to return the hostages and stop the war in Gaza, Mr. Trump took to social media.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): This is a big day. We will see how it all turns out. We have to get the final word down in concrete.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Negotiators for all sides will begin meetings in Cairo tomorrow with that exact goal in mind. Special envoy to the Middle East Steve Witkoff and the president’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, will represent the U.S.
We will talk with the president’s top diplomat and national security adviser, Marco Rubio, in a moment.
But, first, our Debora Patta reports from Israel.
(Begin VT)
(CHANTING)
DEBORA PATTA (voice-over): Suspended between hope and dread, families and friends of hostages who have waited nearly two years for their loved ones to come home are not celebrating yet.
LIRAN BERMAN (Hostage Relative): We have lived through Hamas lies before. We cannot let another deal collapse.
(WOMAN SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
DEBORA PATTA: Many Israelis worry, the danger lies within. Right-wing members of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling coalition Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich have threatened to collapse his government if Hamas still exists after the hostages are released.
ZAHIRO MOR (Hostage Relative): And we know that, the closer we get, the more Ben-Gvir, Smotrich and Netanyahu will do everything to sabotage our chance to embrace our loved ones.
DEBORA PATTA: The terms of the proposed deal take the right-wing dream of annexing Gaza off the table and demand a staged Israeli withdrawal from the territory. Hamas has agreed to release all the hostages in exchange for prisoners and surrender governing power in Gaza.
But it is the things left unsaid that could upend a deal. Hamas has made no mention of disarmament, a key Israeli demand. Palestinians are just as desperate for a cease-fire. President Trump had ordered Israel to stop bombing Gaza after Hamas’ response, but not all the guns went silent.
Asmi Hamdan’s (sp?) 12-year-old granddaughter was killed in an Israeli strike yesterday.
“What was her crime?” he sobbed. “Shrapnel pierced her chest and she died.”
JAMES ELDER (UNICEF Spokesperson): This is two years of a relentless attack on everything they hold dear.
DEBORA PATTA: We spoke to UNICEF’s James Elder in Gaza.
How important is it right now for the children of Gaza?
JAMES ELDER: Oh, it’s everything. It’s everything. They’re holding on. They really – they really are. It’s day by day.
(End VT)
DEBORA PATTA: And there will be a lot of pressure on both Israel and Hamas when negotiations around logistics for a hostage-prisoner swap begin in Cairo tomorrow.
(Begin VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to Secretary of State and National Security Adviser Marco Rubio.
Good morning to you, Mr. Secretary.
MARCO RUBIO (U.S. Secretary of State): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It would be extraordinary to end what has been one of Israel’s longest and bloodiest wars.
The prime minister said he’s only allowing these talks that will be underway in Egypt to go for a few days. What exactly is the deadline for Hamas and the terror groups who are holding hostages? When do they need to release them?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, yeah, so a couple points.
Hamas has – obviously, look, we’re dealing with Hamas, OK? So let’s take that with – for what it is. But they have said that they agree with the president’s framework for the release of the hostages. So what those talks should be about – and some of that conversation is already happening now – – it’s not waiting until Monday in Cairo – is the logistics behind the release of these hostages.
How do you stop the fighting? Who’s going to go in and get them? You know, when are they going to be released? Where are they picked up? What are the processes for this? That’s what should be – that’s what this conversation should be about at this point, because they’ve agreed to the framework of it.
Then there’s second – beyond that is, what happens after that? And that is, how do we ensure that we can create a – and help build a Gaza free of terrorism, free of Hamas, free of anything like Hamas? And that’s going to take work and some time, not just to agree on, but to implement.
But that’s important, because that’s what’s going to bring a permanent end to these hostilities in the long term. And so those are the two phases here. But, right now, the most emergent and immediate phase is the one that Hamas claims to have agreed to already, and that is, they are prepared to release the hostages.
Let’s discuss through the mediators the logistics and the mechanics behind how that happens. And that has to happen very quickly. That cannot drag on.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So my sources have indicated to me that, because the upper echelon of Hamas fighters has been so decimated, communication is difficult. The other terror groups who also hold hostages in Gaza aren’t necessarily easily controlled by them.
How do you manage around this reality? And is full release by October 7 the demand?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, I don’t know about the date. It would be great if it was before October 7. We wish it would have happened yesterday.
But there are realities here, and then there are things people do to impede progress. Reality is, this is a war zone. I mean, this is a place that suffered a tremendous amount of destruction. That fighting needs to stop. You can’t release hostages while there’s still bombardments going on.
But, at the same time, that can’t – you know, so that has to end, but – that has to stop. But you also have to work through the other logistics. Who’s going to go pick them up? We saw how this happened in the past. You know, the Red Cross would go in.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: They would be handed over through this process, et cetera. And so all of that’s what has to be worked on and is being worked on as we speak.
So I’m not telling you there aren’t some logistical hurdles here, but I am saying that the expectation is, is that this happens quickly. And I would also say that, while we want all the hostages to be released, if there are five that are ready to go right now, they should be released right now. If another 10 are ready to go in 12 hours after that, the next group should come out, but, ultimately, they should all come out.
And I think what you’re hearing from people is, yes, there has to be some logistics that have to be worked through. But what you can’t have and what we can’t see and what we hope we will not see is that we get into these talks, and these talks are then delayed, and it looks like they’re unnecessarily delaying it.
That would be a very bad sign. Let’s hope that’s not what happens. And it’s going to be very important for our partners in the region who signed on to this deal, the UAE, Qatar, Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, et cetera, for them to be putting a lot of pressure on Hamas to make sure this happens as quickly as possible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you pointed out that releases can’t happen when bombardments are underway.
Our CBS team in Gaza tells us that there are Israeli bombardments under way. There were strikes Saturday, tens killed, more injured, bombings continuing. One incident included 10 people killed when they tried to check in on their homes in areas where there are also military sites. Is that acceptable?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, I think, ultimately, what you’re going to see here is that, when an agreement is reached on these are the logistics behind when the release is going to happen, then I think you’ll see those bombardments stop.
And I think some of that activity has already decreased somewhat. So, there’s a framework here, and the framework is simple. Once you agree on the logistics of how this is going to happen – I think the Israelis and everyone acknowledge you can’t release hostages in the middle of strikes, so the strikes will have to stop, and, as you saw, the president state that very clearly on Friday, where he want – asked the Israelis to begin to pull back to create the conditions for these releases.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, this is not a violation of that?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: So, look, there’s going to be a lot of complexities.
Well, we’re trying to get the hostages out. That’s the bottom line. We want to get the hostages out as soon as possible. For that to happen, there can’t be a war going on in the middle of it, and Hamas has to agree to turn them over and we have to have the right people go in and get them. That’s what we’re going to focus on right now, and that’s what we’re going to – that’s what we’ve been focused on.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: And that’s what the talks are going to be about today, on Monday, on Tuesday, to get this done as soon as possible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I hear you. There are two phases here, with – Hamas releasing the hostages is the one you’re most focused on. But, big picture, does the United States assess that Israel has so reduced the threat posed by Hamas that it can end combat and transition to the kind of lower tempo counterterrorism campaign that, say, the United States carries out against terrorist threats to this country?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, look, I mean, the ideal outcome here is, you don’t have to carry out any counterterror missions because there are no terrorists in Gaza because Gaza is governed by Palestinian technocrats.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But can they take the win? Can Netanyahu say he won this war?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, first of all, that – creating a Gaza – or setting up a Gaza that is governed by Palestinian technocrats that are not terrorists and are not sponsoring terrorism, that’s not going to happen in 72 hours.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Of course.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: That’s going to take some time to build up, and it’s going to require a lot of work and a lot of international support.
And that’s the end goal here of this entire endeavor, after you get the hostages out. By the way, if you can’t get the hostages out, you have no hope of getting that done. So that’s why I say, you know, that that – these two steps need to happen.
But it’s going to take a lot of hard work and time. You know, you’re trying to build something that doesn’t exist right now, which is a sort of civilian Palestinian leadership that’s not tied to terrorism. That doesn’t exist right now. It’s going to take a lot of help from international partners.
That’s why having the countries in the region and the Europeans and all others involved in this in both money and resources, that’s why building that coalition is so critical. And then implementing it is not going to be easy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But…
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: It’s going to take some time here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Understood.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: But I think, certainly, for the first time in a long time, you see the framework and the outlines of something that could work.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But combat operations can end?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, that’s the goal here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, you wouldn’t need combat operations if there weren’t terrorists there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well…
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: But, by the same token, I would remind everybody, if, in fact, at the end of all this terrorism and a terrorist group remains active inside of Gaza, you’re not going to have peace.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: That’s the fundamental truth here that everyone needs to accept.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: You’re never going to have peace in Gaza as long as there are terrorists operating from that territory threatening the security of Israel.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. But in terms of occupation and combat operations, that’s different than a counterterrorism campaign.
But let me ask you specifically what President Trump said. He told Barak Ravid of Axios that Prime Minister Netanyahu – quote – “took it very far, and Israel lost a lot of support in the world. Now I’m going to get all that support back.”
At what point did President Trump decide that Netanyahu took this fight in Gaza or his operations throughout the Middle East, when did he take it too far?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, I think the president’s – OK, the president’s observation, basically, is that because of the length of this war and how it’s gone – we’ve all seen the international narrative.
We’ve all seen it. Whether we agree with it or not, we have seen countries like the U.K., Australia, Canada and others come out and sort of signal support for – or announce support for a Palestinian state. We have seen, even in our own domestic politics, some of the attacks on Israel.
We don’t forget what happened on October 7.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: That’s the other thing the president repeatedly points to, is, remember October 7.
But the implic – whether we agree with it or not, we have seen the impact that this has had on Israel’s global standing. And I think that’s the point the president is making here, is that, whether you believe it was justified or not, right or not, that we – you cannot ignore the impact that this has had on Israel’s global standing.
That said, if we never want to see this happen again, meaning a war like this, you can never have another October 7 or anything like it ever happen again. And that’s the thing the president has reiterated and repeatedly made clear to our partners in the region, and that is, if you truly want peace and stability and a better future for the Palestinian people, then there has to be a Gaza that is not governed or controlled in any way, shape or form by Hamas or anything that looks like Hamas.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
Does the United States support a Palestinian state? Because point 19 in your White House plan talks about a credible pathway to Palestinian self- determination and statehood.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, again, we’ve always said – I mean, this has been a consistent position throughout – that the only way you’re ever going to have anything that looks like statehood is in a negotiated deal with the Israelis. We are so far from that right now.
A pathway means, yes, you’re going to…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, but Prime Minister Netanyahu opposes…
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: But…
MARGARET BRENNAN: … a Palestinian state and thanked President Trump for speaking against recognition of one. That’s why I’m asking you to clarify.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, we haven’t recognized a Palestinian state.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I understand.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: The United States has not. And, right now, there’s no point in doing that…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Does the U.S. want to see one?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: … because it’s not even possible. That’s not even a realistic thing right now, because who – who would govern that Palestinian state, Hamas?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it’s point 19 in your plan…
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Who would govern it?
MARGARET BRENNAN: … I thought.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, but that’s talking about a pathway long term and in the future.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: But one of the – before you can even get there, OK, that’s – you know, before you can even get there, you have to have someone to turn that land – Israel’s made clear they have no interest in governing Gaza, they have no interest in occupying Gaza long term and being the government of Gaza.
I think Israel – I can’t speak for Israel, but I think Israel would tell you they would love to turn over Gaza to a Palestinian organization that isn’t terroristic. They would love to do that. But that doesn’t exist right now. That has to be built, and that’s going to take time.
You’re not going to build that in 72 hours. You’re not going to build that in 72 weeks. I mean, it’s going to take some time to get to that point. So that’s the pathway this discusses. And I think, if you look forward into the future, where there is suddenly a Palestinian government-like organization that can govern territory, then there’s a lot of possibilities.
But that has to be negotiated and agreed to by Israel. In the end, it’s very simple. There can be peace in Gaza. There can be Palestinian governance in Gaza, whether you call it statehood or something else, as long as it is not terrorists that are in charge of that territory.
That’s what Israel agreed to when they turned over Gaza in the first place, and then Hamas took over Gaza and turned it into a terrorist camp, and that’s what’s led us to the point that we are at today. So if we can get off that road and onto a different road, there are a lot of possibilities long term and in the future, but right now…
MARGARET BRENNAN: So maybe?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: … we are far from that. Right now, we – we need to get these hostages out, and we just need technocrats that are not terrorists to be able to begin the basic reconstruction of Gaza.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That interview was taped earlier today.
With the camera off, Secretary Rubio clarified that President Trump still opposes Israeli annexation of the West Bank, though there is no mention of the occupied territory in the 20-point White House peace plan.
Face the Nation will be back in one minute.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to the government shutdown now in its fifth day.
House Speaker Mike Johnson joins us from Capitol Hill.
Good morning to you, Speaker. Anyone up there to negotiate with?
(LAUGHTER)
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON (R-Louisiana): There’s not, Margaret.
Good morning. Good to hear your voice.
It’s kind of quiet around here. It has been for the last several days, and it’s very unfortunate, because, as we’re talking, real people are being adversely affected around the country, and some in – in very substantial ways.
I pray that more Democrats in the Senate will come to their senses and do the right thing, and when they have the next opportunity on Monday to vote to open the government, I surely hope that they will.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you did send your lawmakers home to their districts, which suggests we’ve got probably another week ahead of us of this shutdown.
You mentioned the real-world impact. Federal workers, including our military, would miss their first paychecks October 15 or 16. How long should workers plan to be without that income?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: Well, the only person who can answer that question is your next guest. And that’s Chuck Schumer, because the House did its job. The reason that House Republicans are home working in their districts, and I suspect House Democrats should be as well, is because we did that.
We passed a bipartisan, very clean continuing resolution a couple of weeks back now, and sent it to the Senate. It’s very important to note what was in that. It was only 24 pages in length, Margaret. It was a good faith effort to keep the government open for seven more weeks so that Republicans and Democrats, in a bipartisan fashion, could work together to fund the government with the appropriations process.
Chuck Schumer always voted for those in the past. In fact, he did it 13 times during the four years of the Biden administration, but now suddenly he’s commanding his Democrats in the Senate not to do it. And there’s one simple reason why. They need political cover from the far left corner of the base.
He’s afraid, Chuck Schumer individually – ask him about it – he’s afraid he’s going to get a challenge from the Marxist left in his party, because that’s the new wave in New York. That’s what this is about. Chuck Schumer is trying to show a fight against the president and Republicans, and real Americans are being harmed in the process of this political game.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. Well, Democrats, as you know, want to have another conversation in regard to extending some tax subsidies that lower the cost of some health care that’s purchased through the Obamacare market.
To that point, though, you’re talking about the politics of this. Our CBS polling that we released today shows neither party’s stance is viewed as worth shutting down this government.
The Democrats want to talk about the tax credits. You know premium pricing is already being set now, even if this doesn’t expire until end of the year. Your fellow Republican Jen Kiggans said: “Raising costs for families with little notice and potentially stripping them of access to care is simply unacceptable.”
Doesn’t she have a point here?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: There’s a lot of points to be made on that, and we’re ready to talk about, negotiate and do all of that.
But they’re trying to create that as a red herring here right now. Margaret, this is a funding bootstrap measure, a very simple, very conventional thing that’s been done here all the time. This is the way it works now. We need a little more time on the clock to finish the appropriations process. We have plenty of time to debate that very complicated issue.
It’s not a simple one. There has to be reforms to that subsidy, because there’s a lot of fraud, waste and abuse involved in it. There’s a – there’s 535 members of Congress in the House and Senate. There’s a – there’s probably 400 different ideas on how to fix that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: But we need a little time to do it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: We’re not saying that we won’t negotiate it. We’re saying, turn the lights back on in Congress, get troops paid, TSA agents and Border Patrol agents paid who are trying to protect us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: Restore the health care programs that are being stalled for veterans and Medicare recipients who are getting home health. It’s all stalled now. Restore FEMA flood insurance programs in the middle of a hurricane program…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. Turn the lights back on.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: … and WIC programs for young women.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But just…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: We got to get this fixed now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But just to clarify what you were just saying, do I hear you correctly that you, as speaker of the House, want to see the tax credit extended at a future date? Is that what you are saying?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: No. No, I haven’t staked out any position on it yet, because that’s not how this process works. We’re in a deliberative body.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. I’m asking you your position because you said…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: I’m the speaker of the House.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … you would be willing to talk about it.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: I’m telling you my position. I’m the speaker of the House. What I have to do is draw consensus among 435 members of my body. I don’t get out and project what the final conclusion is going to be.
And I have told Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries most recently in the Oval Office with the president just five, six days ago, keep the government open so that we can do that job.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: We were always planning to do that. Again, the funding runs out December 31. The month of October is a critical time for us to get to this.
But we can’t when Chuck Schumer keeps voting to shut the government down for political reasons.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: That’s purely and simply what’s happening here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You believe you have time here, but our partner at health policy think tank KFF reported 80 percent of all premium tax credits went to Obamacare enrollees in Trump-won states, red states.
Do you really – do worry at all that this stance could backfire, that waiting to talk about the tax credit could hurt you and could hurt your voters?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: No, because – no, no, because we have time to do it. Again, the funding doesn’t run out until December 31. We’re talking about a September 30 deadline that’s now passed to keep the government open so that Republicans and Democrats can have that very debate.
Chuck Schumer has shut it off because he needs a political argument right now. One hundred percent, Margaret, that’s what this is about.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: Play the tape. Play the tape of Chuck Schumer saying consistently for the last 30 years…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: … that C.R.s are dangerous, destructive, and selfish. He is now the captain of it, and it’s on him.
Republicans in the House, Senate, and the White House want to keep the government open.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you want…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: We have voted to do so. Democrats are shutting it down.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you are committing to have that conversation about health care, is what I understand you saying?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: It was – it was always going to continue.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: They’re making this up. That is a red herring. They’re trying to – they’re trying to say that this fight right now is about that. That wasn’t even a fight. It’s a joke. Call him on it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the director of the Economic Council, Kevin Hassett, was on another network this morning, and said it is up to the president of the United States to decide when the mass layoffs will begin.
He seems to be indicating the president is using those RIFs, those reduction in force threats, as leverage here. Do you know how quickly those layoffs will start?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: I don’t know. I anticipate it will have to be soon, because Chuck Schumer turned off the funding sources and whomever is the chair of the Office…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you want that as leverage?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: No, nor – neither does the president. No, the president wants the government open. He’s pleaded with Schumer and Hakeem in person in his office to do that, and they said no, because they want to do this.
You know what they counterproposed? They want to spend $1.5 trillion, and they want to return hardworking taxpayer dollars to fund health care for illegal aliens. It is in their bill. Go to speaker.gov and see it for yourself, page 57, Section 2141. They’re using this for political games, and it is shameful, and real people are getting hurt.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, that – I have looked at that text. It doesn’t explicitly say what you are indicating.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: Wait a minute. Wait. Hold on. Very important. Very important.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But unauthorized immigrants aren’t eligible for ACA benefits.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: Yes, it does. It’s – it says very simply they want to repeal the changes that we made in the – in the Working Families Tax Cut, the One Big Beautiful Bill.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s right.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: And what those changes were is, it removed health care going to illegal aliens. It removed all the fraud, waste and abuse. And the Congressional Budget Office, CBO, said it achieved the desired result. They project it will save almost $200 billion.
Chuck Schumer’s proposal on page 57 wants to return that $200 billion of taxpayer funds to pay for illegal aliens and other noncitizens. That is a fact, and you can check it out on my Web site, speaker.gov. Don’t trust me. Look at Chuck Schumer’s own paperwork.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Speaker of the House Mike Johnson, thank you for your time this morning.
We’ll be right back with a lot more Face the Nation. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Coming up next, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer. Stay with us to hear what Democrats have to say about the impasse when we come back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Some of our stations are leaving us now, but, for the rest of you, we will be right back with a lot more Face the Nation.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to “FACE THE NATION.”
Senator Chuck Schumer is the top Democrat on the other side of the Capitol, and he joins us now from New York City.
Good morning to you, Leader.
I want to pick up on something the speaker of the House was pointing to. He wants this fight to be about illegals, as he said. And I want to be specific here because we know from our research that there is no federal money that goes towards health care tax credits for undocumented immigrants in this country. The federal government doesn’t fund health insurance for the undocumented. But it is also true that states, like yours, New York, does provide health care for people who are in this country illegally. And their argument seems to be the money here is fundable and bottom line is it comes out of the federal pocket. Do you want to respond to that?
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): You know, they don’t want to – Johnson doesn’t want to discuss the real issue, the health care crisis facing the American people, so he puts up all these fake lies to try and divert attention. It’s his standard operation. He’s just is concerned with the politics.
Every independent agency that looks at this says Johnson’s claim is false. And just as you said, Margaret, no, zero federal dollars can go to undocumented immigrants through Medicare, Medicaid, through ACA. And so, we ought to be talking about the real issue here, which is that we have a health care crisis in America, caused by the Republicans. They’ve – they’ve barreled us towards a shutdown because they don’t want to deal with that crisis, plain and simple.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, let’s talk about the shutdown in a moment. In terms of health care, where you – you’ve taken us in terms of the messaging, Democrats, as I understand it, are looking for an extension of those Obamacare tax credit. I believe you’d like them permanently. You heard the speaker say, we can talk about that after the government is reopened, perhaps not permanently. But do you hear any kind of opening here for a negotiation whatsoever?
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Well, right now, not. Look, Johnson’s not serious about this. He sent his – all his congressmen home last week and home this week. How you going to negotiate when they’re all there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, he says the job is in the Senate with you and – and Leader Thune.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: And he’s – well, no, you need – no, you actually need Johnson. If you’re going to negotiate any agreement, you need Johnson, Thune, Trump, Schumer, and Jeffries. And the reason he sent them home is because he’s more interested in protecting the Epstein files than protecting the American people from the health care crisis.
We’ve been trying for months and months to sit down with him and have a serious conversation addressing America’s health care needs. And they’ve refused and refused and refused. And just on your show, and on other shows, when they ask him, well, will you do it in January.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: He says it – it’s starting in January. He says, no, we’ll have a conversation. Well, you know what, later means never. And we’ve tried 45 days and 45 days and 45 days from March on. We asked them to vote on it three times. The Republicans in the Senate. They voted no three times. So, we need to solve this crisis.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That was a permanent extension. Well –
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Look –
MARGARET BRENNAN: The bill that I think you’re referring to was Senator Shaheen. It was a permanent extension. It wasn’t the, you know, compromise that he –
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: He – Johnson has not committed –
MARGARET BRENNAN: That some Republicans have proposed.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Yes. Margaret, Johnson has not committed to any extension and he won’t until the American people force him to. And it doesn’t – and, by the way, the crisis doesn’t start in January. Two days ago, starting October 1st, millions of Americans are getting notices that their health care premiums are going – dramatically increasing. If you’re a 55-year-old couple and you pay – make $80,000, you know how much your premiums will go up if we don’t extend it? It will go up something like $25,000. The average American will pay $900 more.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: How do Americans who are struggling, and sitting at the table Friday night figuring out how to pay the bills, how the heck can they get such an increase? Democrats are simple, we want to extend it, and so they won’t have to pay that increase.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: And Johnson does not want to do it. He’s just not serious about it, as exemplified by him sending the House home for two weeks. You need to be here to negotiate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, you’re using the word “extend” verses making permanent, just making clear there.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Look –
MARGARET BRENNAN: And then the number we see –
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Look, I’m not –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is the average increase of about $1,000 in premium payments for most households that will go into effect.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Right. Right. Yes, and it’s horrible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But – but on the – on –
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: And you – it’s horrible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: On the – on the reopening everything conversation, sir, though –
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I mean, do you trust Leader Thune? And – and when you look at just your numbers here, three senators already crossed over to vote with Republicans on this short-term funding deal. Are you concerned about more defections?
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Look, it’s a Republican shutdown because they have refused to talk with us. Johnson, I saw him mentioned that we did it 13 times when I was majority leader. That’s true. You know why? In every case we sat down and talked with the Republicans, and there was a give and take, and then both sides didn’t get everything they wanted, but we got it done. They have refused to talk to us even once. And Jeffries and I have been trying to get them to talk to us for –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Thune – Thune told Fox that there are ongoing –
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: They’ve tried to get to – us to talk to them for –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Ongoing conversations.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: We’ve tried to talk to them for months and months and months and they said, no. The American people know that they’re in charge. Republican president, Republican Senate, Republican House, that they have a responsibility to governor, which means sit down and talk with us so we can address these needs.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But back to the question of defections. Leader Thune was on another network, on Fox, and he said there are conversations with Democrats who want to find an offramp here. Is he having conversations with Democrats other than you? Are you sure you can’t – will you have defections?
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: I’ve – I’ve encouraged my – yes, Margaret, I’ve encouraged my Democratic members to sit and talk to Republicans. It’s always good when Democrats and Republicans talk to each other.
But two points. First, in those conversations, the Republicans offered nothing. And – but second, the only way this will ultimately be solved is if five people sit together in a room and solve it. They are the president, who also doesn’t seem serious about this. You know, he’s putting out his memes and his things with the grim reaper and all of that stuff, and he’s playing golf.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Johnson’s not serious. And so, we’ve got to sit down, the five of us. That’s the way to solve this problem. But when Democrats talk to Republicans, it’s a good thing. And I’ve encouraged my Democrats to do it, but they’ve offered us nothing. No change.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Have you tried calling President Trump? He seems to take phone calls directly.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Well, you know, we sat – we tried to get President Trump to sit down with us weeks ago, long before the shutdown date started.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, no. OK.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: He said – he said, yes. He said, no. Johnson told him to say no. We sat down the – you know, the day before, and he wasn’t serious. He put these red hats on the table, and he’s joking around. And honestly, in the meeting, Margaret, I got the feeling he didn’t even know what was happening, that the crisis was impending, that people would pay such a –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: He once said, they’re going to pay all that? That would be bad for me.
And so the court here is the American people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Uh-uh.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: The American people are hearing what’s happening, and they are demanding that we address this crisis.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: They are demanding we sit down together and do it. It’s just logical. They are – say that, you know, in your survey that you put out –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: They say that 75 percent of people feel Trump isn’t doing enough. Another survey by “The Washington Post” showed not only did 80 percent of the American people want us to extend these credits, but 55 percent of Trump voters.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, our – our –
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: The American people are, right now –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Our –
SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Talking to their senators, you know, talking to their congressmen. They’re telling them, get this done. We want to get it done.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Our – our CBS polling also shows that neither side is getting good grades on any of this, Leader.
We’re going to have to leave that here for this moment.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’re now joined by Illinois Democratic Senator Tammy Duckworth.
Good morning, and good to have you here in person.
SENATOR TAMMY DUCKWORTH (D-IL): Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, I have to ask you about what the president announced yesterday in regard to federalizing 300 National Guardsmen out in the state of Illinois. We’ve heard this threat going back all the way to August. The governor says these are not needed. Do you have any idea when they’ll arrive?
SENATOR TAMMY DUCKWORTH: Well, I believe they’re going to be Illinois national guardsmen, so they’re not going to be coming from out of state. I spoke to our governor yesterday, and it looks like it’s going to be about 300 Illinois guardsmen who will be activated against the governor’s wishes. So, they’ll be – they’ll be homegrown Illinoisans. And they’re our brothers and sisters, our neighbors. I probably served with quite a number of them, certainly the leadership, and, you know, they’ll be home. We’ll – we’ll welcome them.
It’s a misuse of the National Guard. They’re – they’re not needed in this particular role. If President Trump really wanted to fight crime, then maybe he should stop defunding the police. He, you know, he diverted $800 million in crime prevention efforts away from – that was appropriated away from funding for our police officers. So, you know, I – I – they’re not needed, but we’re going to welcome them because they’re our brothers and sisters, and we’re proud of our National Guard.
MARGARET BRENNAN: He has surged – or the federal government has surged agents from different groups. The FBI said yesterday they’re sending folks in. Tell me about these protests. Because the – the images look pretty intense of what has happened in – between people on the streets of Chicago – we’re showing some of that video now – around immigration issues. As I understand, yesterday, ICE authorities shot a Chicago woman in the Brighton Park area. Secretary Noem claimed ICE fired defensive shots at this woman, who was armed who had appeared in a border patrol intelligence bulletin previously. She claims that federal agents were surrounded and were threatened. What are local authorities telling you about what they think happened here?
SENATOR TAMMY DUCKWORTH: Well, they lie, right? The Trump administration lies. We have a president who’s a known liar. And they have been – they have been lying about the situation all along. And, in fact, they even shot tear grenades – tear gas grenades, I think, at a reporter who was simply driving by with her window open. And so, we are – we’re urging people, we’re urging our protesters, remain calm, peaceful protests, exercise your First Amendment rights, but videotape everything. Everybody has a phone. Tape everything so that we actually have real evidence of what is happening.
We know the Trump administration lies consistently. And what I am hearing is that, for the large part, people are being very quite – are being very respectful, but ICE is being very aggressive. Remember that they are zip- tieing children. They are raiding apartment blocks in the middle of the night, separating children from their families, pulling people out on to the streets naked. They are using Gestapo tactics in Chicago. And this is what Trump wants to, right? He wants to intimidate the people of Chicago. That’s not going to happen. And we’re going to document everything and make sure, just as the judge in Portland said that these – these requirements, these orders from the Trump administration are not actually tied to reality.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’re talking about President Trump’s directive to send Oregon National Guard troops into Portland, and the judge said that – untethered to the facts.
But in this case, I mean the Homeland Security adviser says, “there’s a large and growing movement of left wing terrorism organized and funded.” They’re posting on Homeland Security images of snipers. So, we’re not talking troops, we’re talking about federal agents that are carrying out some of this right now. Have you seen any evidence of – of what Stephen Miller is describing here in terms of organization and targeting of federal agents?
SENATOR TAMMY DUCKWORTH: No, not at all. This is – it’s simply not happening. They are lying. And so, if anybody is targeting anyone, it is out of control ICE agents targeting, again, zip-tieing children, throwing reporters onto the ground, separating children from their mothers, trying to convince schools to turn over kids from public schools. They are raging through the streets of Chicago trying to intimidate everyday, ordinary citizens who are just trying to go to school and go to work. That’s not – that’s not what America is about. And it is shameful that the president of the United States has instigated this in one of its greatest cities. He should be defending the city. He should be protecting the city. Send us the federal dollars that were appropriated in a bipartisan way to support law enforcement. They took money away from law enforcement officers, child prevention effort – violence against children prevention efforts. They – they’ve literally – this president has defunded the police.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, that is counter, their message at least. But on the message around the military, I want to ask you about what happened at Quantico and just – so our viewers are clear, you serve on Armed Services, but you retired from the National Guard. You were a lieutenant colonel.
SENATOR TAMMY DUCKWORTH: Twenty-three years. Proud of it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Black Hawk helicopter pilot in Iraq. You served in combat. Secretary Hegseth told senior military leaders just a few days ago, he doesn’t want to prevent women from serving, but he’s now going to require everyone meet the male standard.
Let’s listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, SECRETARY OF WAR: When it comes to any job that requires physical power to perform in combat, those physical standards must be high and gender neutral. If women can make it, excellent. If not, it is what it is. If that means no women qualify for some combat jobs, so be it. That is not the intent, but it could be the result.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARGARET BRENNAN: How did you hear those remarks? And how do you think female service people heard them?
SENATOR TAMMY DUCKWORTH: Well, this is the least qualified secretary of defense in our nation’s history. And he’s questioning the ability of the women who actually qualified to do their – to do their jobs. The female rangers, the female that graduated from SEAL school have met those highest standards. And by the way, he – he is obfuscating a little bit because there are different male standards. The standard for a 45-year-old man is not the same as an 18-year-old man. So, he doesn’t actually talk about that. He has long sought to push women out of the military. And, frankly, our military could not do its job of protecting America and keeping us safe without the women who serve in the military.
If you look at some lessons we learned in Afghanistan, for example, the lionesses, the Marine Corps group of women who actually went on patrol, all female units, that actually was able to get intelligence from women, Afghani women, to get information on the enemy. Frankly, you’ve got the least qualified secretary of defense in the nation’s history who wastes taxpayer dollars on a regular basis doing things like bringing in general and flag officers to be an audience for his dog and pony show, using them as little toy soldiers, when they should be out there, at their units, in command, doing their jobs.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator, thank you for very time and for your insight.
We’ll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to the former commanding general of the U.S. Army in Europe, retired Lieutenant General Ben Hodges. And he joins us from Germany.
Welcome to “FACE THE NATION.”
LIEUTENANT GENERAL BEN HODGES (Retired Former Commanding General, U.S. Army in Europe): Thank you very much, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to pick – pick up where we left off with Senator Duckworth, who is a Purple Heart recipient for her time serving this country in combat.
Men and women have different basic fitness standards. The secretary, in his remarks at Quantico, said women – or he suggested women were being given a pass or were held to lower standards for fitness requirements. Do you think his change to the, quote/unquote, “male standard” is necessary?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL BEN HODGES: I think this is completely unnecessary. I have 38 years in the Army, and we’ve served with women in all sorts of different environments and deployments. And I never had a case where a female soldier was not able to do what she had to do. So, this is a – seems to me an unnecessary, almost a medieval approach that doesn’t reflect the requirements that we have for women and men who are intelligent, able to operate in a modern battlefield environment.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The defense secretary made these remarks at Quantico last week, as you well know, ordered in our most senior military officers to hear him lay out what he talked about in terms of changing rules of engagement. Those, you know, codes of conduct and standards, to make war less brutal. The secretary said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, SECRETARY OF WAR: We also don’t fight with stupid rules of engagement. We untie the hands of our war fighters to intimidate, demoralize, hunt, and kill the enemies of our country. No more politically correct and overbearing rules of engagement, just common sense, maximum lethality and authority for war fighters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARGARET BRENNAN: What do you make of – of those directives to officers?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL BEN HODGES: Well, that’s – that’s not going to help anybody accomplish their mission. I mean when you think about the mission that we had in Afghanistan, for example, and I think that’s where some of his experience comes from, it was to protect Afghan civilians so that they could reestablish government and secure themselves. And so it was not about how many Taliban could you kill. We had already tried that, and that didn’t work.
So, the rules of engagement are not politically correct. They’re not intended to make it harder for soldiers or units to do their job. They actually are part of the mission. Why are we there? And so, I don’t have any experience where killing a lot of innocent people, or violating the Geneva Convention, is going to help accomplish the mission.
I think that the idea that we should – that somehow it’s going to make us better and more effective by people not having to worry about the law is going to be bad for us in the long-term as well, both psychologically for soldiers, but also the trust of the American people and of our allies in American forces, where we have always lived up to international law. And that was where a lot of the respect came from. We do not want to be like the Russian army, and they certainly don’t worry about rules of engagement.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And the Geneva Conventions are something that the secretary, as a private citizen, wrote about in his book and questioned whether they should be followed at all. He said, “what if we treated the enemy the way they treated us? And if we” – I mean he talked about al Qaeda and using some of their tactics, “rip their arms off, feed them to the hogs.” I mean, this sounds tough, but in terms of practice, does it risk the lives of – of those who are the trigger pullers, those who are on the ground, to have this message delivered from the highest levels?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL BEN HODGES: Well, listen, first of all, the Geneva Conventions were constructed starting in 1949 after the Second World War. And they were intended to protect innocent people, helpless people, noncombatants from the ravages of war, as it did happen in the Second World War. And I don’t think anybody would say that Dwight Eisenhower was woke. And here he was, he was chief of staff of the Army, and then supreme allied commander, and then president. So, this was during his time that the United States helped create and sign the Geneva Convention. So, here’s a guy with more combat experience and wartime experience than almost anybody.
Now, the – when you think about modern warfare, especially when you’re counterterrorism, just as Secretary Rubio was describing earlier on your program, the people – how – how you deal with the enemy and how you deal with populations is how you defeat an insurgency. And killing everybody in sight is not how you defeat an insurgency.
MARGARET BRENNAN: As defense secretary, Hegseth fired the top military lawyers who advise on lethality. Here’s some of the advice he gave to senior leaders this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: You kill people and break things for a living.
In this profession, you feel comfortable inside the violence so that our citizens can live peacefully. Lethality is our calling card and victory our only acceptable end state.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARGARET BRENNAN: What do you think that means?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL BEN HODGES: Well, first of all, it’s not connected to the reality of how these things happen, how wars are won. First of all, the political leadership has to describe the end state. What is – what is it we’re going to do? Why are we sending troops somewhere? What are they supposed to accomplish? And usually it’s not going to be by killing everybody in sight. So, I think – I think there’s a disconnect between this idea that it’s all about lethality and that we kill people and break things. That’s – that’s not the mantra of any Army unit I was ever in, in 38 years. It was always about, accomplish the mission that was assigned to us, carry out every lawful order, and do it in such a way that protects civilians and ensures that all of our soldiers are protected and come back home safe. This idea of break things and kill people, you know, that’s what the Russians did in Bucha and Mariupol. That’s not who we are. We’re the soldiers of a free, democratic country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The president also spoke at that gathering. He referred to “the enemy within.” He also spoke about using “U.S. cities, like Chicago, as training grounds.” Are – are you comfortable with people thinking that?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL BEN HODGES: Well, look, I think, first of all, U.S. military – our fellow citizens should be confident that the U.S. military will always carry out lawful orders. And so it’s alarming when all of the Judge Advocate General, or the Army – or the military lawyers are sacked, are sent away because commanders do need to have legal counsel as they receive orders and they look at these complex situations. But our – our troops will carry out lawful orders.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. Thank you.
LIEUTENANT GENERAL BEN HODGES: I guarantee you that no soldier wants to have to use force against American people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Lieutenant General, thank you for your insights. We have to leave it there.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Until next week, for “FACE THE NATION,” I’m Margaret Brennan.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
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