The following is a lightly edited transcript of the September 17 episode of Right Now With Perry Bacon. You can watch this interview here.
Perry Bacon: Good morning, everybody. I’m Perry Bacon. I’m the host of the New Republic Show Right Now.
I’m honored to be joined by Justin Bibb. He’s the mayor of Cleveland. He’s also the head of the Democratic Mayors Association. So Justin, well, thanks for being here.
Mayor Justin Bibb: Great to be with you.
Perry Bacon: Mr Mayor, lemme start by asking just, in a broad way, what’s it been like to be a mayor these last seven months? I’m guessing it’s not as easy as the previous seven months, but talk about that just in your Cleveland experience.
Mayor Justin Bibb: Yeah, I didn’t know how good I had it under former president, Joe Biden. It has certainly been a chaotic seven months under the Trump Vance administration. But despite the chaos, despite the uncertainty, despite the instability, we are still delivering here in Cleveland, and my democratic colleagues across the country are still delivering. And we’re standing in the gap right now. We’re standing in the gap to continue to make dramatic strides, making sure we reduce violent crime and keep our city safe and secure. We’re standing in the gap to make sure our residents still get affordable housing. Or get food from our local food banks, as we see these immoral cuts to SNAP benefits. We’re standing in the gap to make sure residents have the ability to make sure their kids have good quality schools to go to, as we see these cuts in the Department of Education. And so one of the things I love about being a mayor is that there are no excuses. I can hem and haw all day about the fact that we don’t have a good partner in the federal government right now, but at the end of the day, we still have to deliver. And we’re doing the best we can to deliver in these chaotic times.
Perry Bacon: Let me ask ‘cause I, I’ll be honest, I read a lot of news about Chicago and Boston and Los Angeles. I have to confess, I don’t know what’s actually happening in Cleveland day to day. I mean, are you getting this kind of aggressive [treatment]? I don’t think the National Guard is there as far as I know, but are you getting the sort of negative impacts other cities are getting from the sort of militarized intervention [that other cities are facing]?
Mayor Bibb: Yeah. And, you know, just this week, Congressman Max Miller, wrote an op-ed in the Washington Times calling for the National Guard to come to Cleveland and, and listen. I have a lot of respect for Congressman Miller. He’s been very supportive of my vision as mayor, and I’ve said consistently I’ll work with anybody, Democrat, Republican, or independent who shares my vision to move Cleveland forward. But this is an area where I disagree with the congressman. We don’t need the National Guard in Cleveland and Perry, let me tell you this. I’ve seen firsthand in my three years as mayor what it’s like to work with the federal government to reduce violent crime and keep my city safe. Just two weeks ago, we did a special operation with the US Marshals and got over one hundred and thirty violent criminals off the street. When Steve Dettelbach was running the ATF, we launched their first ever crime gun intelligence center in Cleveland, and we got thousands of illegal guns off our streets and solved a historic rate of homicides in our city. We got huge federal funding to invest in, violence interruption programs who work with gang members, work in the streets and hotspots to quell gang violence, to keep our city safe. So I know what it’s like to have a strong federal partnership around public safety, but the National Guard ain’t the solution. We need more money to hire more police. We need more money to get illegal guns off our streets. We need more money to invest in the FBI to stop gang violence and stop other issues of human trafficking in our city. That’s where the federal government can be supportive right now, in America’s cities, not with deploying the National Guard.
Perry Bacon: Just to be clear, the National Guard is not there right now, and there’s ICE there in some ways, but not the way, you know [other cities have had].
Mayor Bibb: Well, we have had ICE raids across northeast Ohio. But I’ll also say this I’m a Democratic mayor in a red state and I’ve worked very closely with Governor Mike DeWine on many issues around public safety and criminal justice reform. And the governor and I just talked last week that he does not intend to send the National Guard into Cleveland without my express approval because he believes in home rule. He believes in federalism, and I’m really glad that I have my governor’s support on this important issue.
Perry Bacon: Let’s talk nationally a little bit, and I, you, me, you mentioned crime earlier, and I know, you know, I live in Louisville. I talked to mayors in other places too. Each mayor says we have a great crime-fighting plan, but I wanna emphasize it looks like it might be worth [it]. I know you all want to say individually, your work is important, and I wanna emphasize that, but it looks like crime has gone down nationwide, and that’s a great thing that we should celebrate. It may be the credit to the group of you all, not just like—it may not be the Justin Bibb or Michelle Wu or Brandon Johnson have solved crime, but the country is doing something different collectively. The mayors are, is that the right way to think about this?
Mayor Bibb: Well, when you look at a majority of cities across the country. Over eighty percent are run by Democratic mayors. A large share of America’s GDP comes from cities led by Democratic mayors, and there are some consistent themes that you’re seeing. Across large cities and medium-sized cities that we’re doing to address public safety, from you know, big cities like Boston that you talked about with Mayor Wu to what we’ve done in Cleveland to what Mayor Dickens is doing in Atlanta. And here are the common themes, Perry. Number one, we’ve invested in paying our officers more. I’m the son of a cop. I know firsthand the sacrifice that it takes to wear that badge, to put that uniform on every day, and in my city we boosted police pay by over thirty four percent, working with our police and the police union to get the job done. The second thing that we’ve done that other cities have done as well, is we’re investing in more technology while also making sure we protect civil liberties. But technology has played a very large role in solving more homicide cases, to tracking where these illegal guns are coming from that are being deployed on our streets.
And the other thing I would say is we need a serious on safety conversation about addressing the root causes of violent crime. Right? You know, poverty is a major driver of that. Healthcare instability is a major driver of that. Housing affordability is a major driver of that. And we are trying to address the root causes of crime as well too. So it’s not just about being law and order and tough on crime, that’s only one part of the solution. But we as mayors, and especially as Democratic mayors, are really looking at, in all of government approach, meeting folks where they are to keep our city safe and secure. And I think that’s why we’re seeing these dramatic reductions across big cities across the country right now.
Perry Bacon: Talk about these National Guard deployments. I find them very scary when I, you know, there’s talk that City X has low crime, maybe they should send the National Guard to City Z. I don’t want the National Guard in Louisville either. So I just wanna be clear, like I don’t love the idea. Send ‘em, send ‘em to some other place. I think the National Guard should not come to the city unless the mayor wants it to. Do you agree with me about that? Just generally?
Mayor Bibb: Absolutely. I know that when we had some major protests and riots in Cleveland after the tragic murder of George Floyd we had to bring the National Guard in to help quell some of the civil unrest and help quell some of the anger that we saw in our city. But, you know, this moment does not call for the National Guard. I want the National Guard to be deployed when we see flooding in American cities. I want the National Guard to be deployed when we see wildfires or other natural disasters. And the unique thing about this is that the National Guard is not trained to do constitutionally appropriate policing. It’s a very scary line when we are going to try to militarize the National Guard in cities for someone’s own political agenda. And so the message from America’s mayors is this. Work with mayors, let us scale what’s working in cities. Let’s fund what’s working in cities. But the National Guard is not the solution.
Perry Bacon: So when he says crime is high, so I need to bring the National Guard in, what do you think this is actually about?
Mayor Bibb: It’s a lazy argument, and it’s a strategy to weaponize the executive branch for someone’s political agenda. It’s a distraction to feel more chaos in our country and more chaos in our cities. And don’t get me wrong, we still have a lot more work to do to keep people confident that cities, especially cities led by Democratic mayors, are ones that are effective, accountable, safe, and secure. And that’s the work. One homicide is too many. One shooting is too many. But deploying the National Guard is not gonna solve or address our homicide issue. You know, what will, making sure we have comprehensive policy solutions around the housing affordability crisis so folks can have dignity and a safe place to live. You know, what will more funding to support mental health and behavioral health programs at the local level. You know what will—not deconstructing our social safety net, so folks aren’t stealing to put money on the table, on the table so they can have something to eat at night. We need to get serious about what are the drivers of violent crime and work with Democrats, Republicans, and independents across the aisle to actually be serious about solving these problems.
Perry Bacon: One thing I don’t fully understand, like a lot of my friends say, they’re targeting cities run by black mayors, Chicago, Baltimore, and DC. That’s true. I can’t quite tell because. To your guys’ credit, there’s a lot of cities that have black mayors, and that’s a good thing. You know, I think if that person’s the best person they want, that’s a good thing. And he doesn’t seem to like Michelle Wu, very much either. So, gimme your sense. Is this a racial thing or not? And what’s your sense of it?
Mayor Bibb: I certainly think that there is a racial element to sew more division in our society. And in my opinion, as a mayor, I don’t believe public safety should be a partisan issue. It’s a basic part of the social contract that exists in this country. And so, I welcome a very common-sense, pragmatic conversation about how we address America’s public safety crisis. Has my party made some mistakes in terms of how we’ve talked about this issue? Absolutely. But I would tell you this, mayors across this country, especially Democratic mayors across this country, are waking up every single day, every single day, focused on keeping their cities safe and secure and what we need is a partner in the White House and federal partners in DC who are serious on working with America’s mayors to address this issue.
Perry Bacon: And I think that’s a great note to end on. Mr. Mayor, well, let me actually ask anything else you wanna talk about in terms of like, I, I feel like, actually one more question, which is like, I’m proud of our cities. I think, as you know, our cities have created a lot of GDP. Our cities create a lot of innovation. Our cities are some of the most diverse places. Can you talk about why cities themselves are an important part of America?
Mayor Bibb: Well, especially in this political climate right now, where there’s so much hate, so much vitriol. Americans can’t seem to talk to one another about how we come together and solve our most vexing problems. I think the last hope to save this democracy, to preserve the visions and the aims of our constitution as we celebrate the signing of our constitution today is American cities. We are on the front lines every single day trying to make this experiment of our country real, or trying to make sure that the next generation has a better shot at achieving their God-given potential, their version of the American dream. And so if we want to save this country, we’re gonna do it one city at a time. And I think America’s mayors can certainly lead the way in this moment now more than ever.
Perry Bacon: Thank you, Mayor Bibb. Thanks for joining us. I appreciate it.
Mayor Bibb: Thanks for having me. Bye-Bye.
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