Mandy Patinkin, 72, and Kathryn Grody, 78, are a highly successful artistic couple. He has won Tony Awards for roles in musical-theater classics like “Evita” and “Sunday in the Park With George” and played iconic characters in film (like Inigo Montoya in “The Princess Bride”) and television (Saul Berenson in “Homeland”). She’s an award winner, too, earning Obies for her Off Broadway acting work. She’s also an accomplished author — her book about parenting, “A Mom’s Life,” is a gem of the genre — and a playwright, performing her one-woman show, “The Unexpected 3rd,” at the People’s Light theater in Malvern, Pa., this fall.
But the twosome, who have been married for 45 years, recently found a new level of acclaim simply by being themselves. During the pandemic, Gideon Grody-Patinkin, the younger of Kathryn and Mandy’s two sons, began posting zany TikTok videos of his parents bickering, joking, kibitzing, needling and being sweetly affectionate with each other. Those videos found a wide fan base online, at a time when people were hungry for a dose of familial closeness.
The trio of Grody-Patinkins is now in the early stages of creating an advice podcast. They’re also shopping a pilot for a TV show based on their relationship called “Seasoned,” on which Gideon was a co-writer.
I talked with Mandy and Kathryn about, among other things, finding viral success later in life, the ups and downs of marriage, their passionate political activism and being Jewish in this fraught moment. Gideon participated in the interview, too — thankfully. He helped wrangle things conversationally (these folks are talkers) and also offered some very useful perspective on his very lively parents.
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In the social media post where you said you were working on an advice podcast, Mandy referred to you two as “messes.” Kathryn, do you think you are?
Kathryn: Oh, definitely. We’re purposeful messes. I embrace being messy more than I ever have as a reaction against the whole A.I., chatbot, algorithm world. I want to be messy. I want to be human. I want to make mistakes. I want to apologize. I want to be tactile. So yeah, we’re messes.
Gideon, has your parents’ messiness led to any particular emotional reaction from you?
Gideon: One hundred percent. They’ve been great teachers in what to do in the world and what not to do. One of the gifts is I’ve seen their often hysterical, emotional, painful response to things not be in service of their life and joy. If they could take a beat and have a little more perspective or gratitude or just air in their lungs, they’d enjoy their experience more.
What do you think of your parents making an advice podcast?
Gideon: These two never think they have much interesting to offer. They communicate their life experience, and people find it illuminating and hilarious and bizarre and they see their own parents in it, but they’re the furthest from thinking that they’d have any advice to give. One of the ideas for the name of it was “Don’t Listen to Us” — just to clarify that these two don’t have any expertise.
Mandy: In anything!
Do you have a hunch for why people respond so positively to you?
Kathryn: All of this was an accident of the pandemic. People were terrified, they were stuck in their homes, and for people who couldn’t get to their parents or their grandparents, we seemed to offer comfort or warmth. It shows that people don’t have bias about people with white hair. I’ve been furious about this for years.
Gideon: If somebody would offer her a seat on the subway, that was a big mistake. She would tear into them.
Mandy: I used to pity these people that would try to help her. But I don’t understand the logic of why people would pay attention to us. There’s a lot in this world that I don’t understand, and that is one of the things, because we’re just ourselves.
Kathryn: I think that authenticity — we’re not selling anything. I have no brand of makeup, obviously.
Gideon: That’s not always true. The initial intention was to get more eyeballs on posts about the International Rescue Committee in support of refugees around the world. Mom’s got a play that she wrote coming up. I want to be truthful when you say we’re not selling anything.
Mandy: The reason that we’re here today, in truth, is that we’re having a lawn sale and we’re hoping that people will come. We have wonderful items. Gently used, some broken, but you can get them fixed.
Even just in the few minutes we’ve been talking, you two instinctively held each other’s hand. You, Kathryn, patted Mandy’s hair.
Mandy: What’s left.
It’s very sweet. Are there ways in which your dynamics have changed over the years?
Mandy: Two things that I’ve noticed. One: There were times when things got pretty scary, ugly, frightening — maybe we made a mistake. We were separated on two occasions.
You refer to these periods as “the troubles.”
Mandy: Yeah. But we saw each other every day, we spoke every day, we met at Popover on Columbus every day next to Barney Greengrass.
Kathryn: On Amsterdam.
Mandy: On Amsterdam. Every day. We couldn’t be apart. Somebody said this to me once: When you can’t even watch the person you chose to live your life with eat, it so repulses you, you don’t want to hear them speak, you’re looking for the exit constantly — let it go. Just move on. But the key thing that has changed is time. Kathryn has stopped obsessing and screaming about aging and being terrified. She’s not worrying about time like she used to. She recognizes it’s moving too fast, and if we worry about it, we’re going to miss a lot. That has changed exponentially, and I’m so grateful that we’ve accepted that we’re older. There are such benefits. We’re always saying to each other, if you could be whatever age, what age would you be? I would say, well, I’d be 25, the age I was when I met you, but only if I can know what I know now.
You’re looking skeptical, Kathryn.
Kathryn: I mean, the question was “What has changed over the years?” First of all, it’s the things you don’t know. Are you going to be able to have children? Are you going to be a good parent? Are we going to be able to make a living? Also, at the beginning of the relationship, you make a lot of assumptions about commonalities, because there were certain things that drew you together. Then when you commit to each other, you discover, Oh, I’m a social person. He is not a social person. I love people.
Gideon: He likes some people.
Mandy: Name them.
Gideon: Maureen?
Mandy: OK, one.
Gideon: Rosemary. Ellen.
Kathryn: Bill.
Mandy: They all got in the article, look at that.
Kathryn: The inherent tension of not knowing all those things brings out the best and worst in you. Recently we were talking about when the kids were little, and I mentioned that when Gideon was 4 days old and our older son was 4, we had a birthday party for the 4-year-old, and then he kissed us goodbye and went to Europe to do “The Princess Bride” and I was alone. Mandy went: “I would never have done that! That didn’t happen.” I said: “Honey, who you are now wouldn’t have done it. But who you were then? Yes, you did that.”
Gideon: And I’m still sore about it.
Gideon, have you seen a change in your parents’ relationship?
Gideon: Totally. There was a period when they split up that I was sort of happy for them. I was like, These are two people who are so enmeshed and codependent — having an experience in their adulthood where they could discover who they are without the other could be great for both of them. Then I saw two people who were completely incapable of being away from the other. I was kind of excited for how they’d develop in ways that maybe they couldn’t while stuck together. But that was a long time ago. Now I’ve gotten to see two meshugana people stick it out for better and worse, and that’s a beautiful thing.
Mandy: I wish for everyone to have a companion to go through life with, to do nothing with, to have in the other room. You don’t have to be married, but someone who, when you meet, you feel something that you cannot put into words. That is what you should hope and pray for and be available to the possibility of taking place in your existence. When the [expletive] hits the fan — and in every relationship worth its salt, it will hit the fan — you will reflect on that moment where you couldn’t put into words what you felt about that person, and that is the gold.
Kathryn: I can sum up what I hear.
Go for it.
Kathryn: I used to want to share my feelings about politics, about a book I read, about an article, about a person, and it would drive him crazy. He would say, “I just want you to be a body in the other room.” I would be furious. A body in the other room? Get one of those dolls!
Mandy: Which we looked into.
Kathryn: I found that so insulting in the beginning of our relationship.
It sounds dehumanizing.
Kathryn: Dehumanizing, and not seeing me and my needs — and screw you! Now I know what that means: the comfort of just having somebody you know really well, and we’re sharing the same space but very comfortably being each other’s body in the other room.
All of you are Jewish and also politically active, including on social media, where you talk about your hope for a cease-fire in Gaza and the tragedy of that situation. Then also, antisemitism is heightened right now. Are you feeling any differently about what it means to be Jewish at this moment?
Kathryn: I hate the way some people are using antisemitism as a claim for anybody that is critical about a certain policy. As far as I am concerned, compassion for every person in Gaza is very Jewish, and the fact that I abhor the policies of the leader of that country does not mean I’m a self-hating Jew or I’m antisemitic.
You mean Netanyahu when you say the “leader of that country?”
Kathryn: Yes. The politics of what he’s doing is the worst thing for Jewish people. It’s like lighting a candle for anybody that has any antisemitic feelings. It’s creating a generation of wounded and hurt kids who will understandably be very angry. I feel deeply troubled and horrified by what is happening in my name. So I am very proud of every Jewish person that stands up for the humanity of people in the Middle East.
Mandy: I’m sitting here praying as I’m listening to Kathryn. I’m asking Hashem, who I like to refer to, for his strength for me to be of service to your question. I’m going to say several things, and I’ll try to make sense. I want to take it back for a moment. [In the early 1980s] I came back from Europe after working and we had our firstborn son, Isaac Grody-Patinkin. I was asked to sing the Israeli national anthem in front of the U.N. for a Soviet Jewry Rally, I believe. I was on the podium with my baby son. Mario Cuomo was on my right. Ed Koch was sitting behind us and a stranger was next to me. I didn’t know who he was, but he had a distasteful vibe, and I took my son and I moved him from my left — between the stranger and me — to my right arm so my baby would be between Mario Cuomo and me, not between this man. This man got up to speak, and I remember that he was introduced as the Ambassador from Israel to the United Nations. I’d often hear my parents say this phrase on the South Side of Chicago, in the Jewish community: “That’s good for the Jews” or “That’s bad for the Jews,” and in my mind, I heard, “That’s the definition of what’s bad for the Jews” — and I didn’t know this man. I just knew he was a threat to my child. Later I learned that that man was named Benjamin Netanyahu.
Gideon: You felt the vibes.
Mandy: Then, 10 or 15 years ago, I was in Philadelphia, getting ready to do a concert with my dear friend Patti LuPone. I go up to the hotel room and “The Princess Bride” was on, and just as I walked in the room was that final scene in the movie where Inigo is sitting by the window with the Man in Black, and the Man in Black asks Inigo, would he like to be the next Dread Pirate Roberts, and Inigo Montoya said these words: “I have been in the revenge business so long. Now that it’s over, I do not know what to do with the rest of my life.” And I ask Jews to consider what this man Benjamin Netanyahu and his right-wing government is doing to the Jewish people all over the world. They are endangering not only the State of Israel, which I care deeply about and want to exist, but endangering the Jewish population all over the world. To watch what is happening, for the Jewish people to allow this to happen to children and civilians of all ages in Gaza, for whatever reason, is unconscionable and unthinkable. And I ask you Jews, everywhere, all over the world, to spend some time alone and think, Is this acceptable and sustainable? How could it be done to you and your ancestors and you turn around and you do it to someone else?
It does feel as if we’re living at a moment pervasive with despair. It’s important to not succumb to despair. I want to know: Where do you find joy?
Gideon: Can I chime in? One place I find joy in the world — and that I remind my parents of — is being proud of them when they speak up for things they believe in. I’m proudest of them when they speak for people who have less power and are being harmed.
Mandy: Our grandchildren. Kathryn gets on the floor all day long.
Kathryn: I still can’t get over that I’m old enough to be a grandmother. I remember walking with my grandson in the fall, and he said: “Look! The leaves are yellow!” I remember thinking, Where’s the red? I stopped myself and went, Jesus, what is with me?
Gideon: That is your challenge: to notice the yellow leaves.
Kathryn: To notice the yellow leaves and to suck in that wonder and joy. That is my antidote to grief.
There’s a scene in the “Seasoned” TV pilot where you two — your characters — have a big argument, and you, Kathryn, have this line that you say to Mandy. It’s something to the effect of “It’s not easy because you take up all the space.”
Gideon: “Your feelings are so big that mine have to shrink.”
How did you figure out how to work through that problem?
Kathryn: It was easy to avoid my own mishegoss because his was so big. I once said that I was supposed to marry a rock so I could be the lunatic I am, but instead I married a lunatic so I have to pretend to be a rock.
Mandy: Don’t forget to say I’m not always a lunatic.
Kathryn: He’s not always a lunatic.
Mandy: That came out very naturally.
Kathryn: In fact, I had my own lunatic-ness, and I realized at a certain point that I could avoid dealing with and improving on my issues because I was so busy taking care of him.
Gideon: You do that with your children too. I’ve said to you, Mom, that I want to be good friends with you, but that means being able to communicate things that aren’t positive in my life, and it’s difficult to do that with you when you’re so ravenous to take your children’s problems — or anybody else’s — and blow them up and make them a bigger thing so that you can avoid your own.
Kathryn: Yeah, but that’s an improvement, right?
Gideon: We’re getting there.
I actually emailed Gideon last week and asked him if there are things that might be interesting to ask you that haven’t been asked before. He sent me a long list.
Mandy: Feel free to publish it as a book.
One of the things that he brought up was that he has noticed that you, Kathryn, have developed an interest in expanding the mind. He said you’ve gotten into astrology, learning about string theory, you’re toying with the idea of taking psychedelic mushrooms.
Kathryn: Uh-huh. [Laughs.]
So as you get older, do you think about balancing between pushing yourself intellectually and emotionally and taking comfort in just being who you are?
Kathryn: All those questions about “Will I find love?” “Will I be a mother?” “Will I have a career?” Those have all been settled. But I don’t feel who I am sitting here right now is who I want to be in 10 years. I’m so drawn to physics. The concept of one thing being in two places at one time. My brain is not able to really grok those concepts, but I’m so drawn to the description that we’re all part of a cosmic hum, that energy really doesn’t ever die. I want not to be afraid to learn new things or change my mind.
Mandy: I’ve learned something that works every time.
Kathryn: Honey, it’s not going to work now.
Mandy: It will work.
Kathryn: No, it won’t.
Mandy: Not if I tell you I adore you? She laughs whenever I say I adore her.
Were you going to say something else?
Mandy: No. I want to just tell her I adore you.
Kathryn: Honey, the word does not accurately describe your feelings toward me on a 24-hour basis.
Mandy, how do you think about balancing still wanting to grow with an inclination to just rest in who you are?
Mandy: Resting in who I am will bore the [expletive] out of me. I have so much growth to do. I came to puberty very late.
You’re speaking metaphorically?
Kathryn: Yeah, no.
Mandy: I was late to everything, and I’m late to being a human being and growing up and changing. I struggle continuously with panic attacks, with anxiety, with trying to live that lesson of being in the moment, and I want to get better at it before it’s over. There are moments that are going on in this world, in this life, that put me in the reverse-gravity chair. The other day, I’m upside down with my head back and I’m weeping for maybe 35, 45 minutes. I couldn’t control it. But Kathryn sat next to me. Didn’t say a word. Just held my hand until we were done. And then we went to the kitchen, and we had more of her No. 1 dish, which was rice and vegetables that you have to put on so much special sauce that Gideon brings to make it taste like something. But we made it through. There’s so much good ahead.
This interview has been edited and condensed from two conversations. Listen to and follow “The Interview” on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, iHeartRadio, Amazon Music or The New York Times Audio app.
Director of photography (video): Timothy Shin
David Marchese is a writer and co-host of The Interview, a regular series featuring influential people across culture, politics, business, sports and beyond.
The post The Grody-Patinkin Family Is a Mess. People Love It. appeared first on New York Times.
