This personal reflection is part of a series called The Big Ideas, in which writers respond to a single question: What is history? You can read more by visiting The Big Ideas series page.
The 2024 television series “Shogun,” a historical drama set in feudal Japan, was a worldwide hit. The show and its actors won a record 18 Emmy Awards, as well as four Golden Globes. Critics and viewers praised it not only for its writing, acting and production, but also for its devotion to accurately portraying Japan and Japanese culture in the early 1600s.
The historical drama, which has been renewed for a second season, is based on a novel of the same name by James Clavell, published in 1975 and adapted into a mini-series in 1980. The story focuses on the relationship between Lord Yoshii Toranaga, a warlord struggling to fend off his political rivals, and John Blackthorne, a marooned English navigator who becomes an adviser to Toranaga. The 2024 series gives a more prominent and complex role to Toda Mariko, Blackthorne’s interpreter.
The characters’ historical counterparts are Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga), the “shogun,” or military ruler who helped to unite Japan; William Adams (Blackthorne), the first Englishman ever to reach Japan; and Hosokawa Gracia (Mariko), a Japanese noblewoman and converted Catholic.
The novel and two series show varying degrees of faithfulness to the events they’re based on. The newest “Shogun,” however, is built around its Japanese characters and culture in ways that the 1980 series was not, foregrounding those characters’ points of view and their presence as drivers of the plot. And the accuracy the show embraces in details as small as gestures and fabric colors makes it a striking recreation of some parts of historical Japanese culture.
It does include changes — some modernized language, for example, or stylistic omissions — to make it understandable to modern viewers around the world. But its commitment to authenticity makes “Shogun” a compelling lens through which to examine television’s role in interpreting and portraying history, as well as how actors inherit and embody history and culture in their performances.
Two of the show’s lead actors, Hiroyuki Sanada, who plays Toranaga and who was also a producer and consultant for the show, and Anna Sawai, who plays Mariko, spoke with The Times about their approach to historical roles and what “Shogun” taught them about the meaning history carries in their own lives.
This interview, in which the actors discussed the question “what is history?”, was conducted over two sessions, one in person and one via email. These are edited excerpts from the conversation.
History defines so much of what we do, whether we recognize it or not. But I was curious, since you were kind enough to agree to chat: What about this question interested both of you?
Anna Sawai: During a time like this, it’s easy to keep looking forward. But I think that it’s so important to dive into what has happened — what are the things we chose well, what are the things we didn’t. It really does guide us to better decision making. Our show is also inspired by so many historical events.
Hiroyuki Sanada: This gave me a chance to look back at my life, because history is very important in my career. I’ve done, most likely, 50 percent historical dramas.
What did you find when you looked back?
H.S.: I saw so many directors or mentors, and then all my experience — what created me now. And all the cast and crew members of “Shogun,” shooting in Vancouver. So, a little nostalgic.
Do you find that when you do new work, you’re still looking back and finding something in history to inform that work?
A.S.: For sure. Especially with characters that we played in “Shogun,” we had to do that. But even if I’m playing a modern-day character, then I would look at where this person is coming from. What her parents must have been like, thinking about what era they’re living in. You have to do that. You look back and are informed by the past.
H.S.: Exactly. Even playing a modern role in a modern story, we should carry our culture, our family, our own past.
Did you both find that when you made “Shogun,” it gave you a new or a different appreciation of Japan’s history or your own connection to that culture?
A.S.: I’d never been part of “jidaigeki” — period dramas in Japan. Learning things like wearing a kimono. Why are we walking like this? Why are we sitting like this? Why do women have to act a certain way? Or in tea class, I learned that they would admire this hanging scroll called a “kakejiku” and then bow to it. And then after the tea ceremony they would flip the cup and just admire the cup.
Japanese people are not so direct. They don’t say what they’re feeling as much as Americans. And I didn’t really understand why people were that way. But then in tea class I was like, “oh my God, this is where we’re coming from. Of course. We’re just more internalized.” I have a lot more appreciation of why we are the way we are.
H.S.: I’ve done a lot of samurai movies, TV shows, or stage, but just as an actor. This was the first time ever I’ve done producing as well. So I learned what kind of crew we need to make an authentic samurai movie in Hollywood. And then what kind of training we need to do with the young actors and extras. All my experience as an actor worked for this show.
Now that you both have experienced those older traditions a bit more personally in making “Shogun,” is there something you think we should bring back from that time?
A.S.: I’m so comfortable living in today’s world that if I were sent back or if we had to go back I would have a hard time, just because we’re so much more free now, especially women. As a woman, I can see that we have moved forward from a lot of things, rightfully so. So, I don’t know if there’s anything. [Laughs] Do you have a suggestion, Hiro?
H.S.: [Laughs] No …. I love tradition — wearing kimono, tea ceremony. It’s beautiful. But it’s also hard to live in that world, growing up in the modern world. And safety, you know? We can’t survive.
A.S.: Maybe it’s nice to have a once-a-week tea ceremony. But just make it a very short period of time that we experience.
H.S.: Yeah. Watching samurai movies: the best. Not living there. But still, so many people carry the traditional things: tea ceremony, flower ceremony, Kabuki acting, wearing kimono. Continuing as a culture, culture lovers, into the modern world. That’s a beautiful thing.
Making a samurai drama means people have a chance to learn another culture, or their own culture. And not only physical things. We can learn courtesy, respect. We can use tradition in real life to make a peaceful life.
Of the things that you recreated for the show, was there something that you found especially meaningful?
A.S.: For me, it was just giving more context to the women. Where they’re coming from, or even looking behind them, not saying what they’re feeling. I’m not saying that in the past they didn’t feel at all. They definitely did, but they didn’t show it as much. And it’s not just Mariko — every single character that comes onscreen, you understand that they carry so much. Even if they’re in opposing positions, they have this mutual feeling and suffering and are supporting each other from very far. I’m very grateful that [series creators Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo] recreated it in that way.
H.S.: Most meaningful for me was that we created this show with a Western crew and cast, and a Japanese crew and cast — not only one side. We had Western eyes and also Japanese eyes. It’s hard to mix cultures and make something new. But I believe we got it.
Anna, you’re talking about really empathizing with the women of that time and especially with Mariko, I’m sure. Do you feel like you have a relationship with the character you’re playing, in this or in anything else?
A.S.: For sure I do. There’s always going to be a part of her that I carry, because it was such a long and intense shoot, but also the most meaningful character that I’ve played. In terms of going back to the history, of course I did my studies on Hosokawa Gracia, but I knew that I was playing a different woman. Mariko was inspired by Hosokawa Gracia, but I took so much from people around me — the women that I know, my grandparents, my grandma, my mom, Rachel Kondo, Rachel’s grandma. I heard all these stories about Japanese women, and I combined them all and put them into Mariko. So Mariko-sama — Mariko — is very personal to me. The role has a little bit of me in it as well, and I will cling on to her for a while.
You feel her with you sometimes.
A.S.: [Laughs] I don’t know if it’s that intense — like I’m being watched by someone. I don’t know if it’s that intense. But I think that spirit, the unwavering spirit, is always with me.
H.S.: It seems like you and Mariko overlapped during the show.
A.S.: Yeah. And when she was having a hard time, I was having a hard time as an actor, and I didn’t really know what I was experiencing. But now, in hindsight, I can see that I was reflecting a lot of her onto me and myself onto her.
Hiro, do you feel any relationship to Lord Toranaga?
H.S.: Yeah. Luckily I had a chance to play the young model for Toranaga, Ieyasu — a real shogun — when I was in my 20s. And then I played so many other samurai. So I had a chance to learn. And Ieyasu has been my hero since I was a kid. I read the books, watched the movies. Playing his character is very meaningful for me, and introducing his story to the world is my return to him. I think he gave me a lot, taught me a lot — strength, patience. He was living in my mind a long time. And even after playing that role, I still keep in mind the things I learned from him. Still learning from him.
Sometimes fictional recreations of things replace the actual details of those events in people’s minds or in the public imagination. Is that something we should be worried about?
A.S.: When we say accuracy, we’re talking about the mannerisms in certain scenes. I’m going back to the tea ceremony again — we’re doing all of that as accurately as we can. But in terms of story, we’re not presenting this as a documentary. We’re putting a different name to all the characters, and we’re calling it our own show. We’re not saying that this is exactly what happened in 1600. People need to know that it is inspired by events, but this is a show. In a way, we are trying to educate people in our culture, but the events — we need to remember that this is fictional.
H.S.: Exactly. Also, the audience has freedom: How to feel, how to take in the story, characters or culture. We don’t have to explain too much. And when shows or movies use another culture, you have a supervisor for each culture. Not researching, misunderstanding, means insulting the other culture. It is not good. But trying on purpose to create something new as entertainment is no problem. And people want surprises.
How strongly do you feel that your work is connected to the broader tradition of acting? Meaning something that you’re inheriting versus something that you’re creating on your own, or for yourself. Some of that cultural tradition flows through to what we do today.
H.S.: I think it is very strongly connected. But if you just inherit the tradition, it will eventually fade and disappear. I think it is important to add my own experience and the changes of the times to what I inherited, and express it by finding a unique balance that suits the audience of the work. After learning the basics, I try not to lose the courage to break them.
A.S.: It has to have been inherited in some way. It’s not like I woke up and I suddenly invented this thing called acting. But I also think that I’m a filter. And if I do something, it’s not going to be the exact same as other people. It will be some sort of original.
Going into a show like “Shogun,” there was this kind of image that I had of period acting in Japan, and of people who have done it for a long time. There’s just this presence in the way that they say a line. The way they turn around. You can tell when someone knows it. But I went in not knowing how to do it. And when I talked to the showrunner and also the directors of our show, they told me that they wanted me not to know. They just wanted me to come in. It was to bring a different dimension to the period piece, because I think that a heavily period piece in Japan might not be as approachable to the Western audience. So in that sense, it’s quite original. Or it’s more modern.
We keep on developing, but also always learning from past work and actors.
The post Bringing a Modern Sensibility to a Historical Drama appeared first on New York Times.
