Gov. Gavin Newsom of California appeared on Thursday’s episode of the New York Times podcast “The Daily,” as he engaged in a tense standoff with President Trump over the military’s involvement in anti-deportation protests in Los Angeles.
Mr. Trump deployed nearly 5,000 National Guard troops and Marines to the city to clamp down on the protests, against Mr. Newsom’s wishes, and the state of California responded by suing his administration, accusing it of an “unprecedented power grab.”
Here are six takeaways from Mr. Newsom’s conversation with Michael Barbaro, the host of “The Daily”:
Newsom accused Trump of inflaming the situation by mobilizing the military.
Mr. Newsom argued that law enforcement officers in Los Angeles had routine experience dealing with protests, including at events as innocuous as World Series baseball games, and said that local officers had the situation under control.
“We deal with civil unrest. That’s what law enforcement does,” Mr. Newsom said. “The military’s simply not needed. But what he’s doing is trying to gin things up to create problems.”
A small number of demonstrators have looted, vandalized and set cars on fire, and Mr. Newsom condemned those actions. But he suggested that the response from Mr. Trump was disproportionate. The arrival of the National Guard inflamed tensions, Mr. Newsom said, with protesters flocking in response.
“We had to defend the National Guard. We had to use our own law enforcement to protect them,” he said. “Just think about how perverse that is.”
He questioned the president’s mental acuity.
Some of the sparring between Mr. Trump and Mr. Newsom this week has centered on their communication — or lack thereof — about the National Guard deployment. They spoke early Saturday morning, a conversation in which Mr. Trump has said he brought up the National Guard. (Mr. Newsom said that was false, calling the president a “stone-cold liar.”)
But Mr. Trump then told reporters he called Mr. Newsom a second time, on Monday, to admonish him. Mr. Newsom says a Monday call never happened.
The president “starts making up all these things he claimed he told me about, which honestly starts to disturb me on a different level,” Mr. Newsom said. “Maybe he actually believed he said those things, and he’s not all there. I mean that.”
Mr. Newsom added: “He claimed he had another conversation with me. So there’s something going on here.”
Mr. Trump, days from his 79th birthday, has not faced the same degree of criticism over his age and cognitive ability as his predecessor, former President Joseph R. Biden Jr., but some of Mr. Trump’s rambling speeches have drawn scrutiny.
Newsom grew emotional as he talked about his daughter.
Responding to comments from the federal border czar, Tom Homan, Mr. Trump said on Monday that he thought the idea of arresting Mr. Newsom over his handling of the protests was “great.” Mr. Newsom has said Mr. Homan should “come after me. Arrest me.”
But on “The Daily,” Mr. Newsom revealed that the threat had hit home.
“I have a 15-year-old who quite literally came home from school crying because she was told on her last day of school — God as my witness — because she was told her daddy was getting arrested,” Mr. Newsom said.
“And I said, ‘That doesn’t matter. That doesn’t matter. What matters is what’s happening with the military out on the streets. I can handle that, I’ll be fine,’” Mr. Newsom said, his voice rasping with emotion. “‘But I’m worried about you, I’m worried about this country.’”
Mr. Barbaro chimed in: “I’m sensing some emotion in your voice here.”
“Yeah,” Mr. Newsom replied, momentarily seeming at a loss for words.
He said Mr. Trump had ‘authoritarian tendencies,’ but did not back down from overtures to conservatives.
Mr. Newsom has always been willing to joust with Mr. Trump, but lately has seemed more apt to cast the president as an existential threat, and has called the deployment of the military in a domestic setting a crossing of a “red line.”
Referring to a televised speech on Tuesday in which he said “democracy is under assault,” Mr. Newsom told “The Daily” that people needed to “wake up” and resist.
“I just pray that people don’t give in — and this was the final words I said — to cynicism, to their own fear and anxiety,” he said. “They’re the antidote to that, as long as they don’t give up.”
Still, Mr. Newsom, seen as a likely 2028 Democratic presidential hopeful, struck a conciliatory tone toward conservatives after November’s election loss and, on his podcast, hosted right-wing figures like Stephen K. Bannon and Charlie Kirk. And Mr. Newsom maintained that Democrats could learn from them how to win back working-class voters.
“At a certain point, divorce is not an option,” he said. “I’m learning from these guys — I learn a lot. I listen to Steve Bannon” about economic populism, the governor said.
He deplored ICE’s tactics but bragged about working with the agency, reflecting an immigration dilemma.
Mr. Newsom endorsed comprehensive immigration reform, and highlighted the fear some families are feeling from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials.
“You had a nine-month pregnant woman arrested,” Mr. Newsom said. “A 4-year-old that’s gone. People are disappearing. People are disappearing. Disappearing.”
But Mr. Newsom also said that California Democrats had criticized him for working with ICE, “which I’ve done over 10,500 times since I’ve been governor.”
And he distanced himself from the policy of sanctuary cities like Los Angeles, which refuse to coordinate with federal immigration officials. Mr. Newsom pointed out that as mayor of San Francisco, in 2008, he enacted a policy that referred undocumented minors charged with felonies to federal immigration officials.
The contrast reflected the dilemma Democrats face on immigration, an issue where voters have increasingly aligned with Republicans in demanding stricter border control measures.
Newsom dialed back a threat to withhold federal tax dollars.
Even before the conflict over military deployment, Mr. Trump threatened to cut federal funding to California, citing a transgender girl’s success in high school track. Mr. Newsom responded by suggesting that California could withhold the taxes its residents pay the federal government.
But how the state would do so is not clear, and Mr. Newsom said on “The Daily” that he would not encourage residents to simply not file federal tax returns.
“That puts those taxpayers at risk — I would never do that,” he said. But how creative, Mr. Barbaro asked, was Mr. Newsom willing to get to carry out this threat?
“Well, I’m trying to be creative, and we’re looking,” Mr. Newsom said. “I have a team of people looking creatively.”
Kellen Browning is a Times political reporter based in San Francisco.
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