Veteran Sportswriter Pablo Torre Says the Bill Belichick–Jordon Hudson Saga Is More Shakespeare Than TMZ

It’s nearly been a year since Bill Belichick and Jordon Hudson went public with their relationship, but it feels like we’re only just getting to know them.

The last month alone has brought a blitz of revelations. We learned that Hudson, nearly a half-century younger than the former New England Patriots coach, may have in fact been 19 when the two met in 2021––which may have also been why Hudson shut down a question posed to Belichick about their origin story in that interview. We learned that, while operating in her capacity as manager of Belichick’s personal brand, she has actively promoted her own, making her presence felt on both the practice field and at television commercial shoots. And we learned that her omnipresence and influence in Belichick’s life have become a source of tremendous anxiety for his friends, family, and new employers at the University of North Carolina, where he is entering his first season as head football coach.

We learned all of this thanks to Pablo Torre, who has emerged as the definitive chronicler of the Belichick-Hudson saga, which has played out everywhere from TMZ to the New York Times. Not that Torre sought the title. “My goal in life is not to be what Robert Caro was to Lyndon B. Johnson, but for Jordon Hudson and Bill Belichick,” he joked in an interview this week.

But sometimes, the story finds the reporter. In Torre’s case, Belichick’s awkward interview last month on CBS News Sunday Morning served as something of a bat-signal. By then, Torre had already reported on the relationship; in a February episode of his podcast, Pablo Torre Finds Out, he revealed that Hudson used her power to secure a cameo in a Super Bowl ad for Dunkin’ Donuts, appearing alongside Belichick and Ben Affleck.

The CBS interview was set up as a promotional stop for Belichick’s new book; instead, it shifted the nation’s gaze to his mysterious relationship with Hudson. And for Torre, it gave sources close to the couple “permission to even more explicitly share their stories.” Twelve days after the CBS interview aired, Torre presented his reporting on Belichick and Hudson in an episode of Pablo Torre Finds Out that left the public stunned—and his fellow journalists riveted and a bit envious. “Wildly entertaining,” wrote The Atlantic’s Derek Thompson on X, as well as “sort of deeply jealousy-inducing.”

The podcast, which won an Edward R. Murrow Award last year, debuted in 2023 after Torre left his full-time position at ESPN. He remains a frequent guest-host on Pardon the Interruption, ESPN’s longtime talk show hosted by Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon, and has more recently become a regular on MSNBC’s Morning Joe. But Torre, 39, is still a magazine scribe at heart, having cut his teeth as a fact-checker and staff writer at Sports Illustrated. “As much as I am a podcaster through and through, the question is always: How can I still flex the muscles that I had as a print journalist?” he says.

I caught up with Torre over the phone on Monday—just as he was leaving the set of Morning Joe—to talk about the approach he takes to his podcast, his reporting on Belichick and Hudson, and what to call a controversy that’s more cringe than scandalous.

The conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

In February, you revealed that Jordon Hudson has essentially been operating as Bill Belichick’s agent, and that she used that power to insert herself in the Dunkin’ Donuts Super Bowl ad. Is that where your reporting began?

It began with that. It began with the most visible example of someone climbing the ladder

from total obscurity to literally the largest available audience in American media. And the question was: Why is she in the ad? Who asked for this? She was just a side character at that point. Then you start hearing stories. As much as I am a podcaster through and through, the question is always: How can I still flex the muscles that I had as a print journalist? And so that’s how it first started.

You cited 11 sources in your reporting on this story, and I’ve gotten the impression that you spoke to people who were eager to get some things off their chest. Was that the case?

It was this behind-the-scenes secret that people were dying to discuss because Jordon Hudson left this trail of behind-the-scenes wreckage. So the 11 people I talked to were all people who dealt with her and Bill Belichick directly, personally in this summer where Bill Belichick decided to pivot from the archetype of one thing—the most disciplined, distraction-less, private, anti-media, anti-publicity coach in the history of sports––to this guy who was launching a half-dozen different media ventures at the same time. And to do that, it turns out, involved a new character in his story that people were meeting behind the scenes before America got a sense of how she operated. Once that flag went up that I was onto something with this Super Bowl ad, I began to hear from people, and then I just began to commit, as a journalist does, to just make the calls. And it was stunning how deep the rabbit hole continues to go.

The infamous CBS interview aired on April 27. By then, you were pretty steeped in Belichick-Hudson lore. Were you at all surprised by what you saw in that segment?

I was not surprised, but I was in awe, if there can be a nuancing of the reaction. I was not surprised because I’d been hearing stories like this. I was in awe that the things I had been hearing were so manifest in this on-the-nose, almost scripted HBO comedy sort of a way with this feature from CBS Sunday Morning, which wanted to do a puff piece and ended up being unable to avoid the actual lead story, which is how Bill Belichick’s life is being run. And yeah, so that CBS thing, crucially, was also a turning point behind the scenes for people. It gave them permission to even more explicitly share their stories because now it was clear that they were not alone, that they were not going to be out on a limb by themselves. And most importantly, it was an inflection point at the University of North Carolina because there it became such a nightmare. The blood in the water for every tabloid outlet, every news publication, everybody descending, made them realize that this was going to be unsustainable. And that’s when the reporting at North Carolina for me really got unlocked. It was them having to confront this PR crisis head-on.

Since your episode on the relationship ran earlier this month, you said there’s a “real chance” that Belichick doesn’t coach a single game for North Carolina. You noted the key date is June 1, which is when the buyout in his contract drops from $10 million to $1 million. Point blank: Do you think he will be on the sidelines for the team’s season opener on September 1?

As a matter of probability, I say that it is more likely than not that he will be there on the sideline. If you set the length of his tenure at two seasons, I would take the under. I believe that all of this, though, is incredibly fragile. The reason I say that it’s more likely than not that he’ll be on the sideline is because, since the reporting in my episode, it’s very clear that North Carolina has been trying to message exactly what I was being told behind the scenes, which is that Jordon Hudson cannot be around the operations of the football program anymore. And so we’ve seen Belichick––for the first time, and after my episode came out––say that out loud to ESPN. He said it to Michael Strahan on Good Morning America as he resumed the publicity tour for this book. He said that she isn’t involved on the football side.

And that was the thing behind the scenes that had gotten everybody panicked: that she was not merely running the media stuff. She was the first lady of football in a way that gave her entree onto the field. She was cc’d on every single email that Belichick got. She was providing guidance behind the scenes on how to craft the school’s PR strategy around the hire of his son, Steve. And then further down the list of items, it’s just that she was around all of the time. She was on the field and doing a thing that, by the way, no spouse or partner of a football coach is really ever seen doing.

The University of North Carolina’s football team only won six games last season, and the program has mostly known mediocrity. It was easy to imagine a world in which Belichick was playing with house money this season. He probably just needed to show some signs of improvement and generate some buzz. Now I wonder if he’s going to take heat if they struggle because people will immediately point their fingers at this relationship. Has he burdened himself with more pressure?

There’s no question. I mean, all of this is self-imposed. All of this is self-destructive. So, just to rewind for a second to the June 1 date. The reason that was always interesting was because the buyout on his contract dropped from $10 million to $1 million when June 1 came around. And this was already unusual because the implicit option there that Belichick got in the negotiation of this contract was that if he wanted to get out of there, it becomes a lot cheaper for him to buy his way out of there. The implication was because the NFL might have interest, and he always wanted the NFL way more than college football. So, he entered with this escape hatch that indicated he wasn’t fully committed, right? This is before even the Jordon Hudson thing. And so now, when it comes to how he’s running the show, what the self-destruction entails in this regard is a question: What would New England Patriots head coach and general manager Bill Belichick say if working on his staff was North Carolina Bill Belichick?

No one has lived their lives more diametrically contrary to how North Carolina Bill Belichick has operated to date than New England Bill Belichick. And that tension is not merely a PR and pressure problem for Carolina Bill Belichick. It’s also something that has everybody in his life––including his own family, let alone the inner circle that he brought to North Carolina––wondering how this story’s going to end.

It’s remarkable how relentless all of it has been. My goal in life is not to be the preeminent Jordon Hudson reporter. My goal in life is not to be what Robert Caro was to Lyndon B. Johnson, but for Jordon Hudson and Bill Belichick. It’s the strange hand that I’ve unwittingly started to embrace because I find the story so fascinating.

It all seems so wildly out of character for Bill Belichick. I mean, just imagine telling yourself 10 years ago that he would be involved in the most talked-about relationship in America. Do you think the shock value is a big source of the public’s fascination here?

Yes, because he was a character––and not merely a character, but one of the most sharply defined and consistent characters. And so the idea that the guy who all of us met and heard as he refused to talk to the press has wound up in this briar patch of his own devising is beyond cinematic. It’s Shakespearean. It is tragicomic. And the other aspect of this, which is where my curiosity continues, is that this is fundamentally a story about power.

It’s a story about power––who has access to it, who wields it, how it is given up and lost. Belichick is by far the highest-paid public employee in the state of North Carolina, working for one of the most respected public universities at a time when public education, at all levels, is under duress. When they hired him, the state of North Carolina thought they were getting New England Bill Belichick. And instead, they get this version of him.

I talked to a former player of Belichick’s on the Patriots and he said, ‘Look, an old coach wanting young ass is not new.’ And speaking for myself, I’m not here to yuck Bill Belichick’s yums. That’s not what this story is about. I’m not implying illicit illegal behavior when it comes to age-gap dynamics. That’s not what the story is. But what this player told me is that the thing that is most shocking––despite many familiar contours of this caricature of a 70-something man who is trying to revitalize himself in public––the thing that is most jarring to him and his teammates is the “in public” part. It’s that his private life has become so deeply public, and that was the number one thing Bill Belichick never abided. And that agreement to open the floodgates has been incomprehensible to the people who played for him.

It’s shocking and fascinating, but you wouldn’t call it scandalous, right? It feels more cringe than scandalous.

There should be a term for what you’re describing––a German word, maybe––for something resembling a palpable discomfort. Is it because we imagine ourselves as a family member of his? Is it because we imagine ourselves as a player who is signing up for a program in which this circus is happening at the very top in this way? Is it simply the idea that when you watch that CBS Sunday Morning video and you see someone trying to flex power without the understanding that they are actually looking weak because they don’t realize they’re on camera and on mic, and all of this is going to be used in a way that is the literal opposite of how they intended it? Is it just that?

But you’re right. Scandal implies something in which there is some humiliating criminality to the story. This feels like two people, Bill Belichick and Jordon Hudson, holding hands and driving the convertible off a cliff. And you’re just watching it happen like, This is a very strange strategy for literally the man who was hailed as the greatest strategist in the history of football.

In your reporting, you quoted a family source who said there’s “deep worry” over how Hudson could be detrimental to his legacy and reputation. After the CBS interview aired, Charles Barkley, a friend of Belichick, came out and expressed concern. What specifically are these people worried about? What’s the worst-case scenario that they’re fearing here?

They’re worried that he doesn’t understand the extent of what’s happening here. Bill Belichick has been, through his entire life as an adult, basically been ensconced in professional football as the GM and coach of the New England Patriots. He was insulated from the way that public life works for everybody else. There’s a quote from Robert Kraft, the owner of the Patriots, where he says Bill is an idiot savant, meaning that he’s a genius in football but a fool outside of it. And I think what his family is worried about is, to what extent does he realize he’s being used by somebody who is internet fluent, traffics in publicity, has goals that have been so opposite from his previous ones. And if he is acting like this and his eyes are open, is this the man we knew?

It is just that degree of jarring. And look, Bill Belichick very clearly is an adult. He is making choices. He’s consenting to these things. The legitimate, reliable sources that I’ve spoken to ––all 11 of them—are not suggesting that Jordon Hudson is a call girl or an OnlyFans model or some person who is blackmailing her way to power. They’re not suggesting that. But they are worried that this is not merely a horrible look, but it is a disturbing look for the patriarch of their family, who also, by the way, remains someone they are afraid to communicate this bluntly and directly with. Again, I just can’t stop thinking about Logan Roy and Succession. There are people who operate so intimately in and around his life, and yet feel very remote from him. And I think that speaks to just his personality and his style of fatherhood.

The Succession parallels really are spot on. This all feels like the Logan and Kerry arc.

Dude, it’s a bit on the nose. It’s not that I’ve seen this specific television show before, but I’ve seen television shows that, when you combine all of them together, provide a familiar arc. And I think what the people who love Bill Belichick and rely on him are worried about is they know how this story’s going to end, and it’s not going to be a happy ending.

Your podcast is all about venturing down these rabbit holes, whether it’s the Belichick romance or an investigation into the video the New York Knicks made to recruit LeBron James. How do you decide which topics to probe?

We’re a show that likes to take stupid things seriously and serious things stupidly sometimes. And that’s all in the service of trying to figure out if there’s a way to tell a story that is three things. Is it smart? Is it funny? Is it surprising? And that’s kind of the North Star that I have. If I were to tell this story to a friend and they didn’t give a fuck about sports or any of the characters in terms of their proper names, these familiar brands, would they be hooked by this? And that’s really the standard.

It’s my background in magazines. It’s my background in, hopefully, having a decent compass for what’s interesting. And all of that is a longer way of saying it’s formed around my personal curiosity. If I find something interesting and I’m willing to devote my life to tumbling down the rabbit hole on it, if I can get my teeth into something and feel like I don’t want to let go for 45 minutes, then my hope is that other people will sense that degree of energy and enthusiasm and authentic curiosity and want to come along for the ride.

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