The Fascism Expert at Yale Who’s Fleeing America

Jason Stanley has spent the last two decades writing about power, language, and the ways both are corruptible. He is an expert on authoritarian regimes and the author of seven books, including 2018’s How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them and last year’s Erasing History: How Fascists Rewrite the Past to Control the Future, and has been a member of the Yale University faculty since 2013.

Last week, in what he calls an “impulsive” decision prompted by Columbia’s capitulation to Trump administration demands, he decided to leave—not just Yale, but the country altogether. This fall he’ll decamp to the University of Toronto’s Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, where he was offered the position of Bissell Hyatt Chair in American Studies.

“Educational authoritarianism is frequently accompanied by more general restrictions on knowledge,” he writes in Erasing History, “and by attempts to push mythic representations in place of that knowledge.” In the book he likens conservative activist groups seeking book bans to Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels keeping lists of books to be censored, and outlines attacks on the rights of LGBTQ+ people by various fascist regimes throughout history (among which he counts the Trump administration). When I ask whether he sees warning signs in sectors outside of education, he responds, “Are you fucking with me?”

In a wide-ranging interview, Stanley explains why he believes campuses are becoming more dangerous, Canada’s role in all of this, and what he sees as the Trump administration’s most fascist move to date.

Vanity Fair: A lot of people are having conversations right now about how you know when it’s time to try to leave. When exactly did you make the decision, and what was the tipping point for you?

Jason Stanley: I don’t know the general answer to that question, but things are very bad in this country. It’s an authoritarian regime. People are not responding well. It’s moving faster than it moved in Russia, and journalists are not acting in a way that will get them shot or thrown out of windows, unfortunately, which is what is supposed to happen to journalists under ideal conditions. That’s why you go into journalism. [This answer is “dark humor,” he explains in a follow-up.]

But I had this offer, and when Columbia capitulated completely, just absolutely folded, and the Columbia president issued that statement—you know what that statement reminded me of? It reminded me of a hostage who’s been tortured and has to read a statement with their kidnappers behind them declaring that they’ve seen the light.

The Columbia president and other universities are active participants in the destruction of the rule of law, because this attack on the universities is a violation of the rule of law. This regime is taking down the rule of law and what the Columbia president did, and what Yale is doing, unfortunately, in certain of their statements—I mean, we haven’t done what Columbia did, but they’re acting like this is part of some legal framework, when it’s not. It’s an extra legal attack. And so when you do not call it out as an extra legal attack, you are actively contributing to destruction of the rule of law.

I have to say, another thing that is important to mention is that this is the most antisemitic moment of my life as an American, because this is an antisemitic attack on antisemitism. This regime is leaning into the stereotype that Jews control the institutions, and they’re exploiting that stereotype in order to attack the institutions.

Do you think these measures are making campuses safer for Jewish students?

They’re making campuses more dangerous because now everyone thinks that we [Stanley is Jewish] control everything. And also, Jewish students were central participants in the encampments last year, and it took months for the media to acknowledge that.

They’re claiming that leftism is antisemitism. And the Jewish community is precisely divided, especially the young Jewish communities. There are just as many Jewish kids out there protesting Israel’s actions as there are any other group. So it puts those students, those Jewish students, in direct peril. It’s making the campus very dangerous for them. And how horrible is it that so many of my Jewish students, so many of them who are progressive Jews, that the media is saying they’re not Jewish? Is this Nazi Germany, where the government decides who’s Jewish and who isn’t?

This administration has come out guns blazing for not just colleges, but schools in general—DEI, critical race theory, trans athletes, plans to entirely dismantle the DOE. Do you see a reason, or a historical precedent, for these early attacks on education systems?

There’s a great book you should read that is all about this. It’s all about attacks on DEI, critical race theory.

Is it called Erasing History?

Yeah. [Laughs.] Let’s start from yesterday’s new executive order, with the typical Orwellian name [Restoring Truth and Sanity to American History], for the Smithsonian. Students all over the country—my kids did this—travel in buses to DC to go to these museums. It’s a very formative experience for many students. The teachers take them with hushed breath into these museums. It’s such an important memory for so many kids, and it’s taken so seriously, as it should be. These museums are now going to be transformed into ideological indoctrination factories, erasing many of the most important parts of American history, erasing social movements, erasing the perspectives of nonwhite groups. And America will be presented as any authoritarian country self-presents: as the greatest nation in history with its leaders being the only people who’ve done anything.

The first move is to say that no one should be ashamed of colonialism and Indigenous genocide and slavery and Japanese internment. These were part of what made America great. These are no longer going to be shameful moments. They’re going to be things of pride—that’s the next move. It’s not just that you forget them, it’s that you change the narrative. So that the bloody, conquering, subjugating parts of American history are going to be presented as the great parts.

What do you make of Trump’s relationship with Putin?

That’s his BFF. People are like, oh, Putin controls him. Who cares? Even if Putin had dirt on him—and I don’t even know what it would mean to have dirt on Trump—I don’t think that’s relevant at all. What’s relevant is he sees an ideological ally. He sees a buddy. He sees someone who thinks of the world like he does. They want me to love my country, and they want my kids to love their country, like Nazis love Germany. But that’s not how I love my country. I love my country like George Washington loved his country, or Martin Luther King Jr loved his country.

What way is that?

Because it’s a place where you can replace leaders by elections, where we don’t have kings. It’s not because it’s a physical location where great men have walked around, and a flag.

It’s why they want us to love the symbols. The Nazis wanted the German people to love Germany because of the symbols of Germany, the language, the blood, the race. Anything but the democracy.

Two of your colleagues, the historians Timothy Snyder and Marci Shore, are also leaving the U.S. to teach at Munk. Have you spoken to them about their decision to do so?

They’re my best friends. Our kids are best friends. Tim Snyder doesn’t want to leave. He wants to get arrested and shit—and I want to get arrested for political stuff, too, but Tim had to be dragged away kicking and screaming. Marci wanted to leave for political reasons.

Are you aware of other peers on other campuses who have made the decision to take posts in other countries?

That doesn’t even make sense, that comment, because academia, there’s 700 applications for each position. No, it’s almost impossible. 99.8% of academics cannot move. And even though I’m a very distinguished academic, honestly speaking—I mean, nobody would regard me as distinguished, that’s not my persona—

—I think one of your titles is actually distinguished professor at the Kyiv School of Economics, is it not?

Exactly! But no matter how much you publish, no matter how great a teacher you are—I love teaching. But it’s still also a lot of dumb luck that I got this offer. And also, I’m taking a substantial pay cut.

But another way of asking a question is, has anyone asked me if I can help them get a job in Toronto? Everyone. Who hasn’t asked me?

You’ve said that the US is “tilting towards a fascist dictatorship.” How long can it tilt before it gets there?

Well, the states are going to be resisting, but the federal government is a fascist regime. But fascism has to permeate the whole society. They’re trying to replace everyone with loyalists. And that’s a process. They’re pretty far along.

You’ve also said that if this administration is targeting noncitizen US residents for speaking out, it’s inevitable that they will also target US citizens. They have certain tools at their disposal for retaliating against noncitizens—revoking visas and green cards—what could they potentially use against American citizens?

Well, first, Yale thinks of itself as an institution that recruits from an international faculty. No noncitizen professor or students can speak about politics right now. So our days are over as an international institution. Why in the world, if you’re a professor, should you go to a place where part of the agreement is you can never say—it’s not even clear what part of politics you can’t speak about anymore. If you read the Florida AAUP report, professor after professor said, we’re terrified about criticizing DeSantis even in private social media. [A 2021 University of Florida faculty senate report presented these comments, and a subsequent 2023 AAUP report “detailed many deeply concerning developments” in Florida, regarding academic freedom in higher education.] I think they have laws or their interpretations of laws that say, okay, if you’re a state employee, you can’t criticize the governor. So it’s very unclear, the scope, here. Look at Florida. It’s crossed the citizen, non-citizen distinction. They’re like, if you get public funding, you can’t criticize your own government that’s giving you public funding. Why wouldn’t they do that? Why wouldn’t they say if you do get public funding, federal funding, you can’t criticize the president? That seems like an obvious next move.

What was your reaction to the video, released this week, of ICE agents detaining the Tufts PhD student Rumeysa Ozturk?

Horror. It’s terrorism. They’re performing terrorism, and it’s having the effect of terrorism. Terrorism is targeting innocent people to create fear, and that’s what the effect is.

Outside of education, are you seeing warning signs in other sectors?

Like your sector?

Sure.

You’re kidding. Are you fucking with me with this question?

I’m just curious what you’re seeing!

So all democratic institutions are being attacked. The media, you guys are weak—not you, personally, Vanity Fair is awesome. When the AP got kicked out of the White House press pool, the obvious reaction should have been to pull out everybody. Instead, [the AP] put that weak ass letter up.

And then [the Trump administration] went after Paul Weiss and the other law firms started trying to raid their client base.

What’s the most fascist act that the Trump administration has committed?

You want me to do one to 10? No, the whole idea is to do them all together, right?

I think arresting Mahmoud Khalil—arresting a permanent resident of the United States—in front of his eight month pregnant wife, dragging him to… I mean, they’re using Louisiana because it’s brutal. Louisiana prisons, that should sound to everyone like Siberian prisons. I think the attacks on universities, they win as the most fascist, which is why I wrote Erasing History.

I’m a dual Canadian citizen, I went to high school in Canada, my family’s there—I don’t think I personally have witnessed anything like the tension between the two countries that I’m seeing now. What do you think Canada’s role in all of this will be?

Canada’s going to be at the forefront because they’re being squarely targeted by the United States. So just like Ukraine is squarely targeted by Russia, Canada is the Ukraine of North America right now. We’re a fascist regime, so we can’t tolerate a free democracy next to us. Canada is going to be like Ukraine, except they don’t have the Ukrainian army. Trump has said he’s not going to use the military against Canada, and I actually believe that, but he’s going to relentlessly target Canada.

Why do you believe that?

Because if he was going to use the military, he would say he was going to use the military. What’s essential for Canada is that they don’t act like stupid cowards. They don’t act like, we’re going to repair the alliance. No, that’s not happening. The United States is your enemy. This administration is the enemy of the United States, the enemy of freedom.

You’ve been at Yale for more than a decade. How do you feel, emotionally, to be going?

Terrible, terrible. I love Yale. I wanted to spend my life here, I love the students. It’s a tremendous, tremendous sacrifice for me to leave Yale.

You dedicated Erasing History to your two sons. How much did they factor into your decision to go?

The most important thing in my life are my kids. They’re the people I love the most. I would do anything for them, and I want them to be raised in a free country. And I argue with them about that. They want to stay with their friends. I’m moving with my ex-wife, which, that’s hard to do. We see eye to eye that this is better for our kids. And obviously it’s a struggle for them like it’s a struggle for us. But we are leaving for our kids primarily so they can grow up under conditions of freedom.

I think an anxiety for many people is, will we only really realize how bad things are once it becomes too late to do anything about it? How would you counsel people who are wondering how you know that it’s time to try to get out?

Not my business. My business is to describe what’s happening. and you can read what I write and decide for yourself, but I’m not going to make other people’s decisions for them. I’m not into moralizing or lecturing, that’s not my thing. I’m an intellectual. What I do is I describe reality as I see it. I would love to live in the United States, but I want to live in the United States because it’s a place that is free. A lot of Americans don’t care about freedom. If you look at the polls, they say that Americans don’t value democracy at all. I have a different set of values. Democracy comes before the price of eggs. But what I think is particularly foolish and naive and stupid is to give up democracy and raise the price of eggs.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.