Cristin Milioti Meets Her Moment: On The Penguin, Superhero Fatigue, and What It Means to Be Underrated

This post contains spoilers about the sixth episode of The Penguin, “Gold Summit.”

“People will tell you where they’ve gone / They’ll tell you where to go / But till you get there yourself, you never really know,” Joni Mitchell sings in 1976’s “Amelia”—words that Cristin Milioti found herself sobbing to at the 80-year-old’s triumphant recent Hollywood Bowl concert.

“I feel like I’m still recovering, because I cried for the entire three hours,” she tells Vanity Fair from her New York apartment. “‘Amelia’ is my favorite, and I couldn’t believe she sang it—I completely fell to pieces.”

Milioti wasn’t alone in her rapture. “Everywhere you looked, there was someone crying. Then you would catch each other’s eyes, touch your heart, and give each other a nod. It feels like witnessing a miracle—someone who changed music and has certainly whispered in my ear throughout my entire life helped me understand myself and the world. It felt very holy.”

While at the star-studded concert, Milioti received some admiration of her own. “I had a lot of really lovely interactions at that show from people who really are loving The Penguin,” the actor says of her lauded performance in the HBO series as Sofia Falcone, a mobster princess turned murderous villain facing off against an unrecognizable Colin Farrell as Oz Cobb. “I feel very protective of her,” Milioti says of Sofia, who after being tortured for more than a decade in an Arkham prison for a crime she didn’t commit, kills the family members who lied to keep her confined. Homicide aside, “I am just in love with her.”

Bringing the role to life has been a dream assignment for the 39-year-old actor, who long before she ever auditioned for a comic-book film, dressed as Catwoman for Halloween. The idea of Sofias running around this year makes Milioti’s face light up. “I get emotional just talking about it. I would be so blown away,” she says. “That would be a lot to take in, but I would gladly take it in.”

Just as Joni sings of a winding journey in “Amelia,” Milioti has been charting her own path since dropping out of New York University after a single year. She launched herself into a Tony nomination for 2012’s Once, the Broadway musical based on the Oscar-winning Irish film. That star-making turn led to roles big (the titular mother in How I Met Your Mother) and small (30 Rock’s “Very Sexy Baby”), but always memorable. Juicy parts alongside Leonardo DiCaprio in The Wolf of Wall Street, Andy Samberg in Palm Springs, and Jesse Plemons in an episode of Black Mirror followed. It’s all led to the most high-profile project of Milioti’s career—no false alarms in sight.

Vanity Fair: “Underrated” is a word that often gets used to describe your work. How does that label sit with you?

Cristin Milioti: I don’t know how to react to that. I know ultimately that’s a compliment; I would way rather be underrated than overrated. I’ll take that. It just makes me giggle, I guess. Because I’ve been around for a second.

The context that I’ve seen it in is the online appreciation of your performances. Some people declare, “I’ve been a fan of hers since Palm Springs,” “Well, I’ve been here since 30 Rock.” Can you sense when a person wants to approach you and talk about a specific role?

It’s good that I stay away from the internet. I don’t read articles, I don’t read reviews. A couple of friends have very lovingly screenshot things that are very kind and I’m like, “Don’t do that,” even though I am very flattered. But that is very, very lovely to hear. Are there tells for certain projects? There actually aren’t. Sometimes ages. Palm Springs runs the gamut. Black Mirror is my age and above. The Penguin seems to be a big… I hate speaking like this, but I’ve noticed multiple ages. If someone stops me and is like, “Hey, are you…?” I’m always like, “I don’t know.” Because a lot of times someone thinks that we know each other, which I also find delightful.

Are there still people who just want to re-litigate the end of How I Met Your Mother with you?

I haven’t had a re-litigation of that ending in a while.

That’s a relief. At the start of episode six of The Penguin, we see the aftermath of what appears to have been some rough sex between Sofia and Dr. Julian Rush (Theo Rossi). A lot of their dynamic is fairly vague, but how is Sofia thinking about her sexuality at this moment?

Their dynamic is very fascinating to me, Sophia and Dr. Rush. It’s pretty ambiguous, and, obviously, this is a clearer window into it. But for someone who hasn’t been tenderly touched in a decade, especially since it’s so loaded with him, there’s such strange power dynamic shifting between the two of them. He’s probably the only person she would feel safe with. But even for her to feel safe, he has to be completely tied up and she has to be in complete control. He spent so many years restraining her, then she gets out and she’s now restraining him. There’s something about the subverting…not that he’s her side piece [laughs], but even the way she dismisses him and is like, “I’ve gotten what I’ve needed.” She’s still so compartmentalized, because how could she not be? It’s a wonder that she’s even able to experience that at all.

She is someone who has missed pleasure so much. She’s missed all the luxury of what she’s experiencing now, not just the luxury of power, but the clothes, food, sex. It’s like someone coming alive again, but it does have to be on her terms.

You have a really great scene with Carmen Ejogo, who plays Oz’s lover, Eve. What was it like to work one-on-one with her, and why do you think Sofia spares Eve’s life?

It was such a pleasure to work with Carmen, to be with a new energy too. She’s such an incredible actor. Sofia goes into that interaction with a lot of preconceived notions about who this person is and a lot of judgments about why would you perform for men? Sofia comes from her own very privileged life, even though her life has been absolutely and utterly awful. She still, I think, comes in with a lot of judgment and disdain. Also, she knows Eve has been part of the lie about the death of her brother, and that is such an engine for her that everyone must pay for her loss. But she sees in Eve someone who has also been underestimated and overlooked. Who she encounters is actually extremely smart and real, and I think just gets through to her.

Clearly, Sofia’s body count at this point in the show is so many. [laughs] But she still has a very specific code of villain ethics. She can’t be responsible for taking the life of someone in the way that she was accused of. It’s almost like Tony Soprano with the Ducks. [One of Milioti’s earliest roles was a three-episode stint on The Sopranos.] She spares a child. She won’t engage in the type of murder that she was accused of, especially when she connects with someone. But then when it comes to her family, other people on the show, it’s not even a thought.

There’s also this jealousy from Sofia in that conversation. No matter how much power she amasses, she’ll never have the protection and loyalty Eve has. It goes back to Sofia’s line from episode two, “I’m not safe, I’m home.” Is there a way for her to heal from this betrayal?

That’s also one of my favorite turns in that scene. Sofia is a profoundly lonely person. Even in her connection with Dr. Rush that we were talking about earlier, it’s still about power and pain and manipulation. I don’t think they’re having any quiet talks where she lets him in. She’s a complete island. That wound will be there for her whole life of wanting family and loyalty. She would kill to have that. She’s never had that. Alberto [her brother, played by Michael Zegen] is the closest that she’s ever had, and even he ultimately still worked with their dad [played by Mark Strong] and didn’t really help continue to love her.

In the final moments of the episode, Sofia has a weapon in hand and is watching Oz and his mother (Deirdre O’Connell) dance. What is she feeling as she’s watching them—is it that jealousy, is it pure anger?

I have my own precious thoughts about it that I don’t want to share. I think there’s a bunch of things going on in that moment that she’s feeling.

It’s funny. Often when I’m scrolling through the Max streaming platform, The Penguin is right next to The Franchise.

I know a ton of people in The Franchise. Billy Magnussen from Made to Love, which, sadly, you can’t find anywhere now, which is devastating. Aya Cash, Katherine Waterston, we all know each other from New York. They’re doing such beautiful work on that show.

The Penguin feels very far away from the type of comic book project The Franchise is satirizing. What does it feel like to be in something that excites people in a genre that can also feel fatigued and oversaturated?

What [The Penguin] does so beautifully is that yes, it’s in this superhero world, but you’re invested in these characters. [Creator] Lauren [LeFranc] has pulled that off with flying colors. I cannot sing her praises enough. In terms of fatigue, I just think it’s on a case-by-case basis. These films were so huge to me growing up, and certainly, we’re more saturated with them now than we ever have been for sure. But, that doesn’t mean they still can’t move you. I remember seeing the first Wonder Woman in theaters and bawling my eyes out. There were all the little girls. And I couldn’t believe that we’d never really had a superhero movie.

I wonder if it’s also more to the point, and I have this fear too, is that people aren’t going to want to make other things anymore. But then I also feel like we’re living in this really exciting time where things like The Substance exist. Where you’re like, “Well, what the hell? Thank God!” In one breath, people will be like, “Oh, these giant studio tentpoles are taking over everything,” but then you see that movie and you’re like, “Wait, no, we’re still in this really exciting time, where big swings are being taken.” I also feel very blessed to be a part of a show that has a foot in multiple worlds: I felt so creatively fulfilled throughout, as well as jazzed that I was on a giant Batman project.

Have you had a chance to see Joker: Folie à Deux yet?

I have not.

That movie takes some big swings, but has been met with a more divisive reception. What do you think about that as someone who is now in that universe? People do watch superhero projects with different standards.

Specifically with Batman, one of the things that makes this particular franchise—and I don’t even like to use that word—but what makes it so special is that it’s had so many different interpretations. They’re all so wildly different, but all have their strengths. People are able to put their own spin on it and it still remains part of the lore of that world. Someone told me recently, “Oh, it’s a Shakespeare play.” You have these characters and villains, and it can hold the weight of a completely new interpretation. You can hold up different Riddlers, different Two-Faces, different Batmans, and they all still hit.

How has playing Sofia shaped how you’ll approach your next projects, even potentially playing her again in some capacity?

I would love to play Sofia again and again and again. She really means so much to me, so I wish for that, certainly. I feel like this job was really spoiling in many, many ways. It spoiled me to make it, to play her, that cast is so stacked, the crew was incredible, Lauren’s scripts are outrageous, and our directors are so good. And certainly, the reception has been spoiling as well. So, I’m looking for the next thing that would fulfill me creatively, that same kind of juice.

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.