In March, the Grammy-winning singer Lizzo joined The New York Times music and culture show “Popcast” for a special live edition in front of an audience of Times employees.
In an interview about her rise and career hurdles as a purveyor of “useful music,” Lizzo addressed a spate of recent lawsuits that has punctured her public reputation, as well as her new music that has been fueled in part by those setbacks. She then performed a stripped-down set of four songs.
Lizzo’s new album, “Bitch,” is scheduled for release on June 5, taking inspiration from Tina Turner (“I have a diva for every album era”); Meredith Brooks (whose 1997 hit — with the same name as the new album — she covered in concert); and Missy Elliott (who Lizzo said had given her “incredible advice”).
Watch the full episode of “Popcast” with Lizzo below, or read edited excerpts from the conversation. For more “Popcast,” follow the show at YouTube.com/Popcast and wherever you get your podcasts.
JOE COSCARELLI You had this whole career, pre-fame, as an independent rapper. What did you pick up that helped you become a pop star?
LIZZO I think that when you’re an underground artist, you have to work your [expletive] ass off. It’s saying yes all the time. And it is doing any and everything to get your music to connect with people. When I became a pop star, I applied that same kind of work ethic because I know this look cute, but my god, they put you through it. I’m not complaining, because I get to dress up in glitter and shake my ass and people love it. But when you look at somebody’s schedule, there’s no moment unaccounted for.
JON CARAMANICA You said something onstage at the Blue Note recently that really stuck with me about the importance of playing “useful music.” I wonder if you can talk about arriving at that as a concept.
LIZZO I did not start off making useful music. I started off very braggy, what I thought rap was. I had this pivotal moment in my songwriting life, I wrote this song called “My Skin.” And it was the first time I had ever written a song that I guess you would call a self-love song. I saw how people connected to that particular song. People were crying. I saw an opportunity to help people.
Signing a major label deal to make music that strokes my own ego isn’t the point. If I want to stroke my own, I can be an indie artist. But in order to be a major artist or a pop star, what am I going to do with that responsibility? And I chose to only make positive music.
COSCARELLI And it really worked for a while. You became this —
LIZZO Excuse me!? For a while?
COSCARELLI That’s what I want to talk to you about. You became this symbol for people of all of these things: pro-Black, pro-women, body positivity, etc. And then you’ve had a turbulent couple of years in the public eye. You’ve been the subject of litigation as a boss and a songwriter, some of which is ongoing, some of which has been thrown out.
This really punctured, I think, this good-vibes, inspirational character and persona that you were putting out into the world. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about how that affected you on a personal level, but also how it affected what character you want to play as a pop star.
LIZZO You use really, really interesting words, because I think the thing about it is that it’s not a persona and it’s not a character — it’s who I am. Everything that I have shown the world is me. And I think that always puts someone in a vulnerable position. I think pop stars have built a sort of protection of themselves, and they put the pop star character in the front. And then the real them gets to sit in the back. I never did that because I came from the indie world.
This is who I am. I don’t have anything to hide. I love myself. And the world loved me back for it. I think that the beauty of everything is that I get to evolve as a person, and I get to have more depth as a person, because it isn’t always happy-go-lucky. And I feel like moving forward — it’s kind of hard to talk about.
CARAMANICA Is it hard to share that, even just talking candidly about, Hey, I’m not always on like this?
LIZZO In today’s climate, I don’t think it’s appropriate. There’s so much pain and darkness and people hurting — you think of the economy and the government and what’s going on and for me to be in this very privileged position as a successful musician and to go on the internet and pontificate and complain about what’s going on with my life? I’d much rather stick to my mission of being someone who can help bring positive change by articulating how I got through dark times.
CARAMANICA Do you think you get your proper credit in the R & B conversation?
COSCARELLI Or rap, for that matter.
LIZZO You know, Missy Elliott gave me incredible advice. She told me: “If you’re waiting to be in those conversations, don’t wait, because you are your own conversation — you’re in your own lane. There’s nobody like you, and stick to that. That’s all you need.” I felt that so deeply. I’m going to go down in history as being me. And that’s incredible, because can’t nobody stand next to that.
Joe Coscarelli is a culture reporter for The Times and a co-host of the Times podcast “Popcast.”
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